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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8742357" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I'm not holding you to their statements, but their statements match with what I've seen other people refer to when talking about good grapplers. You seem to want to dismiss those aspects of the system and ignore them, and I'm not sure why. Even if it is the "the absolute maximum optimization you can apply within the rules" I'd still argue it isn't good for the game. Because you only say it is perverse because you refuse to see that new options have opened up even while old options went away. You insist that new options don't exist, because they aren't the old options. Meanwhile, I would argue that this version has un-perverted many of the problems with the old system. For example, now Monks can be the best grapplers, which makes sense, and high strength characters are better than high dex characters at maintaining grapples. These are all exactly in-line with what we would expect to see from a grappling system, and these just simply were not the case before. Silvery Barbs and Mind Sliver are actual rules. Monks replacing Dexterity for Strength for Unarmed Strikes is an actual rule. The only thing I'm "imagining" is that it is likely they will update the Grappler feat. This is speculation, 100%, but since they are overhauling the grappled condition.... it would be utterly moronic for them not to look at the Grappler feat. Now, will it be better? Don't know. But, many of us who have discussed this have all come to the same idea, that Grappler could give disadvantage on the saves. But so far you have come across as vitriliocally declaring that grappling is ruined... and it isn't? The thing is, in practical terms, the worst case scenario (other than an unarmed strike shove) is that the grapple is broken at the end of the enemies turn, and you re-grapple on your turn. Which is not a major lose of utility, from my understanding of the set-up, and is actually more dynamic than a perma-grapple. No more misleading than the spells which were used before.I'm not ignoring it. I've acknowledged it. Repeatedly. But, it isn't a massive advantage to monsters. In fact, shove is a massive NERF to monsters. Oh, sure, it breaks the grapple. However, shove also allows anyone who can land a strength based attack to automatically knock any Large or smaller monster prone, no save, no advantage, no chance to resist. You just have to hit. That's massiveNow, I can agree that shove breaking the grapple is something I'm not a fan of. I wouldn't say it makes it worthless though, because there is a lot of interplay possible with movement and attacks of opportunity.</blockquote>

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