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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 3096260" data-attributes="member: 957">We are.  But specifcially I was saying that a WarbladeX/Fighter1 is better than a FighterX+1, even with the warblade suboptimal choice of archery.I am NOT claiming this build is better than a straight warblade.  Which is the way I read that one sentence.There are plenty of 25+ year gamers around here, myself included.  I don't know what level you are playing at.  If it is fairly low then your assessment seems quite reasonable.But with more HP, more SP, better skill options I just don't see how the fighter can possibly keep up.I've yet to find anyone to claim that the WB's manuevers + stances provide a smaller benefit than the fighter's feats.  I think that the WB comes out on top when you compare those two elements.  But I'm willing to allow that it is in the ballpark.  As I said, I haven't seen anyone say that the feats are better.  So call that a wash.Now the fighter gets heavy armor prof and ranged weapons.  Both of those are options that I've seen many many fighters built without any focus in.  So I don't see their removal as a big loss.  And both are easy to solve anyway.To offset that the WB gets a number of bonus feats and/or other special abilities that is only one less than the number of fighter bonus feats (which we have already canceled out), and the HP and the SP.  Heck, as has been said before in this thread and other places:Take the fighter and replace his bonus feats with the Warblade's list special abilities, extra SP and HP.  THAT is a playable class.  If you consider the D12 HD to be mathematically the same as the improved toughness feat (it is really a hair better than that feat), then this fighter already is getting SOMETHING to replace every single bonus feat it has lost PLUS it is getting +2 SP per level and a better class skill selection.  (Someone also said that just having tumble as a class skill was also worth a feat.  Not sure I agree 100%, but it is close)So we are already in the ball park of a wash with a standard fighter.  If you want to say that the WB stuff doesn't add up 1 to 1 with the feats, then I can accept that.  For sake of arguement lets say that the total is worth only 50% of the fighter feats.  I think that is being vastly generous to the fighter side of the arguement.  But so be it.After THAT you add on all the manuevers and stances that make the cornerstone of the class.  As I said, I've yet to see anyone claim that these are worth any less than the fighter feats.So in conclusion when compared to the fighter the WB gains one group of stuff (manuevers and stances) worth AT LEAST as much as the feats AND gains another group of stuff (bonus feats and other specials) that are worth AT LEAST 50% (probably more like 75% - 90%)  AND gains more SP and better class skill selection (I'm rolling the HP in with the specials here).By my math 1.5 + the value of skill points > 1.0.  And that is giving the fighter the benefit of the doubt.</blockquote>

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