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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thanatos" data-source="post: 3109228" data-attributes="member: 5261">I didn't say hand wave, I said they were built in as part of the maneuver and stance system, like it or not, the evidence of that is in the book. The expanded skill list is so they can get the relevant skill for that style.These classes aren't the fighter class and were built with a different mechanic and different concept that wasn't even around when the original classes were published. So no, the fighter in your example shouldn't get more skill points because he is not a martial adept.Not everyone says the whirlwind chain is the best choice for fighters either, I seem to recall that being placed more in the barbarian stead, while fighters go up some weapon supremacy chain. But thats just what I recall, our fighter went up the weapon supremacy tree and had no issues regarding keeping up overall. Maneuvers compare more to spells then feats though and tend to be more narrowly focused and limited to 1 use per combat without refresh, unlike the combat feats in general. Swapping out maneuverr isn't necessairly going to be helpful considering the rather narrow selection warblades get and random ones crusaders get. Swordsages make out the best here, but have the worst refresh mechanic and BAB to counter it.</blockquote>