Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
One thing I hate about the Sorcerer
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Guest 7037866" data-source="post: 9311046"><p>I think that mostly depends on the <em>short rest</em> issue. If you get at least one, the Warlock isn't really weak IMO. Now, it tends to be sort of specialized, depending on what invocations you take.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The warlock spell list is subjective. Numberwise they are about the same as clerics (as of Xanathar's).</p><p></p><p>True, not many spells per short rest. But if you compare overall total spell levels given one short rest, warlocks aren't too far behind for most levels. Factor in <em>at-will</em> spells or even single casting spell invocations and they are only slightly behind wizards.</p><p></p><p>LOL, yeah, low spells known is a bad thing for both Warlock and Sorcerer. The easiest fix for Warlock is you make the Expanded Spell Lists for the subclasses as automatically known, not simply options. If you do this, a warlock will know 25 spells at 20th level, the same number a wizard can prepare.</p><p></p><p></p><p>EB+AB is not IME nearly as popular as it is for you, I guess. I've only seen two warlocks (out of about a dozen) in the last five years go that route.</p><p></p><p>Pacts are fairly lack-luster IMO and mostly fluff.</p><p></p><p>While invocations are cool, there are only about 5 or 6 that I see commonly taken outside of the EB-oriented ones.</p><p></p><p>Finally, multiclassing is a big issue for most power-combos, and for good reason. It is why over 90% of groups use feats, but only about half or a bit more allow multiclassing. Currently, one group I play in allows multiclassing, the other doesn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, but I am taking away whatever other subclass features they might gain, including requiring their use of channel divinity to empower their pact, which for some invocations is required, which then often denied them the use to Turn Undead.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, not FULL sorcery points, more early on (which we did for sorcerers when they were still a class), but actually less. RAW a Sorcerer maxes out at 20 SP, more with a short rest. By comparison, this subclass maxes out at 15, up to 20 with a short rest---assuming it isn't used for Arcane Recovery. To benefit for both, the PC would need two short rests since they can't both be used on the same short rest. Of course, with two short rests, the RAW Sorcerer could have 28 SPs, not just 20.</p><p></p><p>Yes, Arcane Recovery is a great feature for wizards, but that is good because frankly it is really all the core class gets. Now, it's version of Ritual Casting is better than other classes who have it, but TBH most rituals are good for utility, but little else, and certainly not anything you can use in combat!</p><p></p><p>Of course Metamagic is awesome, but it isn't something the subclass can use all the time, unless it sacks some spell slots. It could recover those on the short rest, or some of its SP, but not both.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, with Tasha's I thought Sorcerers could already change out a known spell on a long rest? Granted, it is only <em>one</em>, but again the vast majority of the time spellcasters get certain spells and rarely change them out...</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not really IME. All I can tell you is we used this homebrew for about 18 months, and it was never "too much."</p><p></p><p></p><p>LOL Clerics already have strong ranged attacks! Between <em>sacred flame</em> and <em>toll the dead</em> they have things fairly well covered IME. It is the range of an Eldritch Spear/Spell Sniper combo at 600 ft, but ranged combat in conjuction with general melee rarely need ranged attacks more than 60 feet, up to 120 is the most generally.</p><p></p><p>Wizards never really had that much "power" as a core class. Ritual Spellcasting via spellbook is <em>useful</em>, certainly, and Arcane Recovery allows them to cast <em>more</em> spells in general, but that often amounts to one or two extra spells in the range of levels most people play. What else do they have, really? Nothing. RAW we have:</p><p></p><p>Bard - Inspiration (and Magical Secrets!)</p><p>Cleric - Channel Divinity</p><p>Druid - Wild Shape</p><p>Sorcerer - Metamagic</p><p>Warlock - Invocations</p><p>Wizard - ???</p><p></p><p>Considering other classes have Ritual Casting, even if a weaker version, doesn't even leave the Wizard with that as a unique feature. Given their lack of armor, weapons, and low hit points, the couple extra spells they get from Arcane Recovery barely makes up, if it even does. It is one reason why when I hear people say "the Wizard is too powerful" and such, I just shake my head. The <em>versatility</em> they get isn't even that great IME. Useful, certainly, but hardly "powerful" compared to the features other classes can do!</p><p></p><p>Perhaps your players are more "power gamers" and could find abuses my groups wouldn't. We only have three players I would call power gamers <em>if</em> they wanted to (myself included!). But we are all very experienced D&D players and prefer the challenge of role-playing our PCs instead of min/maxing them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Guest 7037866, post: 9311046"] I think that mostly depends on the [I]short rest[/I] issue. If you get at least one, the Warlock isn't really weak IMO. Now, it tends to be sort of specialized, depending on what invocations you take. The warlock spell list is subjective. Numberwise they are about the same as clerics (as of Xanathar's). True, not many spells per short rest. But if you compare overall total spell levels given one short rest, warlocks aren't too far behind for most levels. Factor in [I]at-will[/I] spells or even single casting spell invocations and they are only slightly behind wizards. LOL, yeah, low spells known is a bad thing for both Warlock and Sorcerer. The easiest fix for Warlock is you make the Expanded Spell Lists for the subclasses as automatically known, not simply options. If you do this, a warlock will know 25 spells at 20th level, the same number a wizard can prepare. EB+AB is not IME nearly as popular as it is for you, I guess. I've only seen two warlocks (out of about a dozen) in the last five years go that route. Pacts are fairly lack-luster IMO and mostly fluff. While invocations are cool, there are only about 5 or 6 that I see commonly taken outside of the EB-oriented ones. Finally, multiclassing is a big issue for most power-combos, and for good reason. It is why over 90% of groups use feats, but only about half or a bit more allow multiclassing. Currently, one group I play in allows multiclassing, the other doesn't. Sure, but I am taking away whatever other subclass features they might gain, including requiring their use of channel divinity to empower their pact, which for some invocations is required, which then often denied them the use to Turn Undead. Well, not FULL sorcery points, more early on (which we did for sorcerers when they were still a class), but actually less. RAW a Sorcerer maxes out at 20 SP, more with a short rest. By comparison, this subclass maxes out at 15, up to 20 with a short rest---assuming it isn't used for Arcane Recovery. To benefit for both, the PC would need two short rests since they can't both be used on the same short rest. Of course, with two short rests, the RAW Sorcerer could have 28 SPs, not just 20. Yes, Arcane Recovery is a great feature for wizards, but that is good because frankly it is really all the core class gets. Now, it's version of Ritual Casting is better than other classes who have it, but TBH most rituals are good for utility, but little else, and certainly not anything you can use in combat! Of course Metamagic is awesome, but it isn't something the subclass can use all the time, unless it sacks some spell slots. It could recover those on the short rest, or some of its SP, but not both. Well, with Tasha's I thought Sorcerers could already change out a known spell on a long rest? Granted, it is only [I]one[/I], but again the vast majority of the time spellcasters get certain spells and rarely change them out... Not really IME. All I can tell you is we used this homebrew for about 18 months, and it was never "too much." LOL Clerics already have strong ranged attacks! Between [I]sacred flame[/I] and [I]toll the dead[/I] they have things fairly well covered IME. It is the range of an Eldritch Spear/Spell Sniper combo at 600 ft, but ranged combat in conjuction with general melee rarely need ranged attacks more than 60 feet, up to 120 is the most generally. Wizards never really had that much "power" as a core class. Ritual Spellcasting via spellbook is [I]useful[/I], certainly, and Arcane Recovery allows them to cast [I]more[/I] spells in general, but that often amounts to one or two extra spells in the range of levels most people play. What else do they have, really? Nothing. RAW we have: Bard - Inspiration (and Magical Secrets!) Cleric - Channel Divinity Druid - Wild Shape Sorcerer - Metamagic Warlock - Invocations Wizard - ??? Considering other classes have Ritual Casting, even if a weaker version, doesn't even leave the Wizard with that as a unique feature. Given their lack of armor, weapons, and low hit points, the couple extra spells they get from Arcane Recovery barely makes up, if it even does. It is one reason why when I hear people say "the Wizard is too powerful" and such, I just shake my head. The [I]versatility[/I] they get isn't even that great IME. Useful, certainly, but hardly "powerful" compared to the features other classes can do! Perhaps your players are more "power gamers" and could find abuses my groups wouldn't. We only have three players I would call power gamers [I]if[/I] they wanted to (myself included!). But we are all very experienced D&D players and prefer the challenge of role-playing our PCs instead of min/maxing them. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
One thing I hate about the Sorcerer
Top