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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9315293" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Yes, the Divine Soul Sorcerer and the Celestial Warlock and the Cleric all deal with the gods, celestials and divine forces... Your point? All clerics are tied with celestials. Heck, you put Grave cleric on there, but Grave Clerics have nothing to do with the undead, and the shadow sorcerers have nothing to do with the undead. I mean, seriously, here is the text for the Grave Cleric "Followers of these deities seek to put wandering spirits to rest, destroy the undead, and ease the suffering of the dying.", I mean, I guess wanting to destroy the undead and wanting to work for the undead and become one have connections... sort of like how a Police officer has a connection to a Crime Boss, but they aren't the same themes.Sure, which is why I like that the warlock text has some wiggle room in it for different interpretations. But that IS why the text mentions arcane studies, to plant that idea in the player's head.Sure, but if we are going to highlight common viewpoints with the goal of altering the text and presentation... then it behooves us to cover other possibilities as well. After all, whether or not people THINK it has to be one or the other does not mean they are CORRECT.I was referencing how you ordered all four together to make a connection. However, even here, you are misrepresenting the connections. For example, you say hat the sorcerer is channeling power from a source.. themself. However, this is completely different from the other three (assuming you want to put the warlock here) because they channel power from an outside source. This is like saying that the Purchase Clerk at Amazon is the exact same as a millionaire, because both have access to a lot of money. But one of those two people is using THEIR OWN money, and that makes a substantial difference. You are also claiming that the bloodline had to come from an entity... it doesn't. A family born near a portal to Mechanus could become Clockwork Souls... and their bloodline could continue. The Sorcerer has the power from their blood (their mother and her mother and her mother all had the same power) but the bloodline didn't start with an entity, it started with a location. This is a problem, because people keep trying to present the warlock's patron and the origin of the Sorcerer bloodline as somehow nearly identical, but you keep flattening and misrepresenting the vast variety of sorcerer origins. Maybe a Divine Soul's bloodline comes from their continued guardianship of a divine artifact, no entity required. Frankly, the sorcerers who DO go with the "my great-great granddaddy was a bard who laid the dragon" are often the ones with the least interest in their backstories.Right, which is completely different from being a conduit for a third party's magical power.Sure, it could be. But I was directly responding to your words. Looking back, I missed an "if" that seems to be what you are hinging your distinction on. But seriously, that is weak. "If" the sorcerer gains their bloodline magic from having a powerful entity in their family tree, how is that different from going and making a deal with a powerful entity for magic? Because one is born with power, desired or not, and the other sought power. That is not a minor difference.I do, because the way DnD likes to portray Gods sets them up as "controlling" the aspect they are a god of. This is why, canonically, Mystra is so powerful. She literally controls all magic for all beings, and therefore must be neutral or.... bad guys woudn't have magic... I much prefer Arcane magic to be largely like physics, it exists and can be harnessed by mortals. This helps prevent Immortal beings from simply running roughshod over mortals. Sure, a God is very helpful for a community, but an Archmage can gain enormous power through dedication, study, and the harnessing of principles of magic. Meanwhile, the realms of nature are handled by powerful spirits that existed before the gods. The Spirit of Fire, The Spirit of the Python, The Spirit of the Mangrove Tree, these are powers that can be equal to Gods, but older and often unconcerned with mortals or anything that doesn't directly come to their attention. For the Gods, I leave them as embodying concepts of "civilization" and "communities". Healing, War, Commerce, Travel, Freedom, Justice, Order, Knowledge, Love. These are powerful and heady forces, but they only exist in a world that has mortals and has civilizations. They are currently ascendant, but in the world without cities, the bear does not go to war, and the gravity still pulls the rain from the sky.</blockquote>

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