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Message: <blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9316790" data-attributes="member: 6877472">Alternately, people who want to return to Vancian casting want to return to the days there it was entirely possible that a spellcaster had no useful spells for a given situation and rarely could produce "magic bullets" to solve problems out of their hat without doing a lot of legwork to know they needed such.A lot of the "Martial v. Caster" threads spend time on the "caster has spell that trivializes what the martial adds to the party" and the damage a caster can do with unspent spell slots.  A few years back, I weighed in on a "goodberry destroys exploration" thread by pointing out the spell totally existed in AD&D- the issue was nobody was preparing it because it's contribution to the game was so limited compared to other spells  you felt you needed.Or take the Cleric- I don't know about you, but almost every Cleric I ever saw played in my AD&D days had Cure Light Wounds in every 1st-level spell slot because it was something you know you'd need, and a spell the other classes might not even have access to.Even in 3e, I played in a group where our "healer" was a Druid and it was a horrible experience since they had to choose between "cool Druid spell" and healing spells, added to the fact that someone decided Druids should be second-tier healers for...reasons.I hate Vancian with every fiber of my being, being forced to memorize "Magic Missile x 3" is pretty wretched, but there are things you didn't see when you had to make choices with little information to work with- it's a different kind of game and one where spellcasters do have less versatility.Of course, the issue is, the game was always designed for players to have ways to get information, from scouting to divination to hiring a sage- but a lot of GM's became loath to give out that information, because a "challenging" adventure could be rendered into a cakewalk with the right prep.Back in the day, to fight a dragon, we'd scrimp and save resistance items and potions, load up on spells the thing wouldn't be immune to, and what was meant to be a frightening encounter with a top tier enemy generally ended with us cheering and the DM frowning.  Unless the DM pulled a fast one "oh see, the Dragon has a Hat of Disguise and is really a Blue dragon, not a...." and the like.D&D has always been a game where information is powerful- just look at that old chestnut "but does your character know about trolls?".  Logically, of course they ought to, if Trolls are a thing.But if they do, a rough fight becomes trivial.  Or the classic AD&D werewolf.  A creature immune to all but special weaponry, able to spread a dread curse and hide it's true nature- if you don't know you're fighting a werewolf, it's very likely a TPK.  But if you do and you're ready for it?  It's pretty much a joke.Because the game hinges on these things and has from the beginning, we end up in this paradigm where it's important to not give players an even break, even as the game has evolved to try and give players just that.We went from Gygax saying no caster should ever be allowed to get their pick of spells, with NPC's turning up their noses at the mere thought of sharing spells to games where you automatically get your pick of new spells when you level up without any justification more than "off-camera research". It's more fun for the player to be able to take the options they want, naturally, but the game hasn't really evolved to the point where it's really safe to always allow them to do that- because WotC has to serve two masters- keeping the people who want to push the game in a different direction happy while not alienating the people who are happy the way it is, thank you very much.So I can't discount people who want to return to a style of play I don't care for (and I've been playing since late '88 so I have some experience with it) because a lot of what WotC has done is make things easier for spellcasters without changing the fundamental play experience.The game is built on this idea that monsters have surprises and it's hard to always be ready for them, and that acquiring and recovering resources are meant to be important things, but players can easily optimize to actually be prepared for a wide range of circumstances and can trivialize the attrition model using the actual core rules!And this will continue until WotC picks a lane.  Which they can't, because every time they try, lol, half the player base loses their collective minds.</blockquote>

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