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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9318363" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Only the sovereign one sounds &quot;mundane&quot; at all to me. And they not only can still choose to defy death, but they are equal in strength to a demigod.See, you are jumping to the conclusion that I am the one making this distinction, and that I am making the distinction in the way you mean it. I was responding to Creamcloud, who stated &quot;potent mundane martials can exist, they managed it in 4e after all.&quot; And my point was that the mythic nature of 4e's epic destinies contravenes that. A fighter in 4e was not &quot;mundane&quot;&nbsp; when they gained their 21st level. Heck, they may have lost that mundane status when they got their Paragon path at level 11. A human fighter could have become a Steelsky Liberator which &quot;draw from ancient divine blessings of those who were enslaved by the dragon lords&quot; So, the claim that 4e managed to have Mundane Martials at all is suspect, because the distinction, as you rightly point out, didn't really exist.Right, 4e epitomized this idea that exceeding mundanity was not an aspect of playing the correct class, but simply of gaining levels, of becoming a paragon or a reaching your Epic Destiny. The mundane is low level, not a feature of being a fighter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9318363, member: 6801228"] Only the sovereign one sounds "mundane" at all to me. And they not only can still choose to defy death, but they are e[I]qual in strength to a demigod[/I]. See, you are jumping to the conclusion that [I]I[/I] am the one making this distinction, and that I am making the distinction [I]in the way you mean it[/I]. I was responding to Creamcloud, who stated "potent mundane martials can exist, they managed it in 4e after all." And my point was that the mythic nature of 4e's epic destinies contravenes that. A fighter in 4e was not "mundane" when they gained their 21st level. Heck, they may have lost that mundane status when they got their Paragon path at level 11. A human fighter could have become a Steelsky Liberator which "draw from ancient divine blessings of those who were enslaved by the dragon lords" So, the claim that 4e managed to have Mundane Martials at all is suspect, because the distinction, as you rightly point out, didn't really exist. Right, 4e epitomized this idea that exceeding mundanity was not an aspect of playing the correct class, but simply of gaining levels, of becoming a paragon or a reaching your Epic Destiny. The mundane is low level, not a feature of being a fighter. [/QUOTE]

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