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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 6727880" data-attributes="member: 7635">I don't fault the idea that of a warlord class, nor do I think the battlemaster or valor bard are completely adequate substitutes. That said, I think "in-combat support equal to a cleric but without magic" is a tall order: The fighter and rogue (the only truly nonmagical classes in the game, though barbarian is very close) are very confined as to what effects they can cause. Primarily, they are limited scope, often self-buffing, and no where on the par of most spells. The warlord be definition seems to want to have non-magical magic; external buff effects, healing others, etc. I could see a warlord being a fully-fleshed out battlemaster; more dice, more maneuvers, a few support mechanics to aid in hp recovery, but that idea almost always gets shot down as "not enough".At a certain point, I have to wonder if the idea of a "perfect" warlord is getting in the way of a "good" warlord. There could be a good tactical, buffer, and support class made without using spells, but he might not look exactly like the warlord 4e presented, nor might he have hp recovery by voice or the ability to grant allies attack actions at will. Is it more important to have a warlord able to do everything a 4e warlord did (and see such as class barely used) than to have a warlord who can do most everything, but it more widely accepted? Its funny. When somebody points out that the warlord is a "4e only class", people grab the Marshal to show there was a 3.5 version of the martial leader concept. Yet when people talk about execution, suddenly the 4e warlord is the only one to model the class on. How about building a 5e marshal, sprinkle on some ideas from the Legendary Leader and PDK prestige classes and the DL Noble class, add a touch of things from the warlord, and then bring some new ideas to the table; shake well and let simmer. There are lots of things beyond the 4e warlord that can be used to mimic martial leadership, and very few have inspirational healing.  I don't consider many of those changes "failings" Making Healing word or Hunter's Quarry a spell, for example, is a good way of expressing those ideas within the framework of 5e's spell system. Having a dragonborn's breath weapon recharge on short rest rather than by encounter meshes with 5e's rest system. Having a high-elf replace the eladrin is more in line with how the elven subraces were portrayed before. A battle-master with Sentinel is as faithful as you can get to the spirit on a 4e fighter, but it cannot, nor should not, resemble a one-to-one match of abilities. I just named off a dozen examples of things 4e brought to the table: spells like Thunderwave or Viscous Mockery, races like dragonborn and tieflings, the warlock class, Short Rests, Healing Surges (in the guise of Hit Dice), full recovery on a long rest, etc. Its played down some, but its certainly on the par with 3e's offerings (feats and stacking multiclass are both optional rules, prestige classes are just now being floated). I seriously doubt many 3e fans felt 5e was knuckled under to the "3tard" crowd for bring back feats and PrCs! Seriously, the persecution complex needs to go. This idea of warlords as reparations for having lost healing surges or ADEU or whatever isn't winning any sympathy. I mean, I might be literally the only person who both didn't like 4e AND still is open to the warlord class, but this notion that the warlord is owed to 4e fans for the game returning to spell-slots or whatever really makes me reconsider. I didn't get everything I wanted either: I'm not keen on the name "Mystic" nor do I like the pseudoscience names disappearing. I find the Far Realm flavor unnecessary. That said, I did get something that wasn't spells and not just a subclass. I got enough that I don't feel I need to keep fighting for Psion, Psychometabolic, or Astral-based flavor. If WotC gave you a Warlord, but it lacked real hp recovery (in lieu of some other temp hp/field medic mechanic) or tied it to "magic of words", but on the other hand made the class that could grant buffs, allow for out-of-turn actions, and other tactical stuff, would you keep fighting for the perfect, or would you accept this is "warlord enough" like I accepted mystic is "psionics enough"?</blockquote>

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