Opinions on anItem - Lyre of Building

[Greenfield]

We've introduced a Lyre of Building (DMG) to our game, but questions arose as to its use.

While we've come up with some of the answers ourselves, I'm interested in hearing your ideas.

First and most obvious, how much work can 100 men do in three days? Can they plow a field?

Does the item presume or emulate the presence of any tools? (i.e. shovels to dig, buckets or wheelbarrows to haul dirt, a plow for a field, etc.)

If so, how basic or advanced would those tools be? Will the presence of actual tools enhance what can be done?

One friend suggested the "plow a field" example, suggesting that a 25 acre field is about what 100 men could plow in three days. That includes the use of ten of the men to emulate a draft animal to pull that mythical plow. Does that sound about right to you?

One obvious question is, what is fair game for raw materials? Can the Lyre be used to demolish a building, even fortifications, by calling it raw materials for building a road, or a really large, neatly stacked rock pile?

Also, the item doesn't mention any skill checks, or what level of skill the labor might have? Any thoughts on that matter?

I'm looking for some guidelines, rather than suggested uses/abuses, by the way. I already know a lot of ways to abuse.

 

[Jacob Marley]

First and most obvious, how much work can 100 men do in three days? Can they plow a field?

IIRC, an acre is defined as the amount of land one man can plow behind an ox in one day. So, yes. They can plow a field quite easily.

Does the item presume or emulate the presence of any tools? (i.e. shovels to dig, buckets or wheelbarrows to haul dirt, a plow for a field, etc.)

IMHO, yes.

If so, how basic or advanced would those tools be? Will the presence of actual tools enhance what can be done?

I would assume mundane tools of whatever technology level you have established for your campaign.

One friend suggested the "plow a field" example, suggesting that a 25 acre field is about what 100 men could plow in three days. That includes the use of ten of the men to emulate a draft animal to pull that mythical plow. Does that sound about right to you?

That's probably a good rule of thumb. I think I'd use 1 ox equals 6.5 humans.

One obvious question is, what is fair game for raw materials? Can the Lyre be used to demolish a building, even fortifications, by calling it raw materials for building a road, or a really large, neatly stacked rock pile?

In my campaign, yes. Anything that could be done by 100 laborers would be acceptable. This includes building something out of something else.

Also, the item doesn't mention any skill checks, or what level of skill the labor might have? Any thoughts on that matter?

I'd assume a collection of journeymen and apprentices: commoners and experts with the appropriate skills maxed out, skill focus [x], and a +1 ability bonus; mostly 1st-level with a couple at 2nd or 3rd. Maybe 90:9:1?

 

[Sunseeker]

First and most obvious, how much work can 100 men do in three days? Can they plow a field?

BEYOND easily. Provided materials are available and you don't need to wait for inspectors, you could probably build several homes in that timeframe.

Does the item presume or emulate the presence of any tools? (i.e. shovels to dig, buckets or wheelbarrows to haul dirt, a plow for a field, etc.)

I think it would have to. Otherwise it could do little more than move rocks and pile them up. You could always houserule that the item only animates available tools, so if you've only got 3 tools available to use, that's all the item can animate for the job.

If so, how basic or advanced would those tools be? Will the presence of actual tools enhance what can be done?

Given the psuedo-medieveal nature of D&D, probably hammer, saw, shovel, pick.

It would be my table ruling that the item can simulate tools, but cannot simply create materials, so your party would still need nails.

One friend suggested the "plow a field" example, suggesting that a 25 acre field is about what 100 men could plow in three days. That includes the use of ten of the men to emulate a draft animal to pull that mythical plow. Does that sound about right to you?

I'd say that's easily fair.

One obvious question is, what is fair game for raw materials? Can the Lyre be used to demolish a building, even fortifications, by calling it raw materials for building a road, or a really large, neatly stacked rock pile?

Yes, yes and yes....but it's not a forge, so items that need to be crafted will still have to be put together. IMO I emphasize the "building" part of "Lyre of Building", it builds, puts things together, cuts things down and reassembles them, but it does not do specially crafted materials.

Also, the item doesn't mention any skill checks, or what level of skill the labor might have? Any thoughts on that matter?

It's directed by the will of the user, so the more skilled someone is at building things, the better the outcome of the Lyre. Or the more specific a person gets. "Build me a wall" is different than "Build me a 10' tall, 200' long wall with barbed fortifications on the.....etc". It's the whole "genie wish" deal.

 

[Greenfield]

To clarify the "Skill" question: Building a wall is relatively straightforward. Building four walls is different only in scale.

Placing a roof over those four walls, one that will stay up and won't result in the walls collapsing, takes Skill - Architecture and Engineering.

Or does it? Does the Lyre supply that skill, or just the labor?

My own thought is that it provides a Take 10 level of skill for common laborer tasks. It can rough-cut stone blocks to stack and fit them together, but it won't carve a fancy relief piece in the building's facade.

It can build walls, but won't pack and prepare the ground or build footings unless directed to do so. That is to saqy, if the Lyre's player doesn't know how to do the job properly, the Lyre isn't going to fill that gap.

It can lay logs between walls, can even hew the timber and fit them together as a carpenter might (up to a DC 10 check), but to make an actual roof, one that can keep out the rain, should call for a Knowledge - Architecture & Engineering check on the part of the one playing the Lyre. I'd allow them to use a plan or blueprint laid out by someone else, but at some point in the arrangement, that check is needed.

What it doesn't or shouldn't call for is Carpentry, Stone Masonry, etc. It can provide that (up to a DC 10), but it can't tell itself what do do, design wise.

I might allow construction skills higher than Dc 10, if the PC using the Lyre has those skills.

 

[Sunseeker]

To clarify the "Skill" question: Building a wall is relatively straightforward. Building four walls is different only in scale.

Placing a roof over those four walls, one that will stay up and won't result in the walls collapsing, takes Skill - Architecture and Engineering.

Or does it? Does the Lyre supply that skill, or just the labor?

I would say just the labor. Like any other construct or magical thing forged from the will of it's user, the stronger that will, the better the outcome.

My own thought is that it provides a Take 10 level of skill for common laborer tasks. It can rough-cut stone blocks to stack and fit them together, but it won't carve a fancy relief piece in the building's facade.

It can build walls, but won't pack and prepare the ground or build footings unless directed to do so. That is to saqy, if the Lyre's player doesn't know how to do the job properly, the Lyre isn't going to fill that gap.

It can lay logs between walls, can even hew the timber and fit them together as a carpenter might (up to a DC 10 check), but to make an actual roof, one that can keep out the rain, should call for a Knowledge - Architecture & Engineering check on the part of the one playing the Lyre. I'd allow them to use a plan or blueprint laid out by someone else, but at some point in the arrangement, that check is needed.

What it doesn't or shouldn't call for is Carpentry, Stone Masonry, etc. It can provide that (up to a DC 10), but it can't tell itself what do do, design wise.

I might allow construction skills higher than Dc 10, if the PC using the Lyre has those skills.

To be fair, you might have to muddy the waters between the player and the character for this.

 

[Ell-Egypto]

we had one in our game. our DM allowed nothing more complicated than what could be accomplished with basic tools: axe, sledge, shovel, rake, hoe.

nothing more skilled could be accomplished than the kno:arch-engin. of the bard playing.

but the "men" could stack basic stone walls, dig pits & moats, and clear land
like nobodies business.

 

[Storminator]

I wouldn't let a lyre of building plow a field. The amount of work is well within the limit, but there's no building there.

PS

 

[Greenfield]

One of it's side functions has already been useful: Playing so as to render structures impervious to all damage for half an hour.

Frustrated the hell out of an attacking force.

 

[Derren]

To clarify the "Skill" question: Building a wall is relatively straightforward. Building four walls is different only in scale.

Placing a roof over those four walls, one that will stay up and won't result in the walls collapsing, takes Skill - Architecture and Engineering.

Or does it? Does the Lyre supply that skill, or just the labor?

The Lyre builds what you want it to, no matter if you have an idea what you are doing or not.

 

[Greenfield]

Actually, building a wall is far from simple. If you don't prepare the ground first, dig down and lay a footing etc, your wall will fall down all on its own.

But I can accept that the Lyre uses the Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering of the musician for any serious construction.