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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LordVyreth" data-source="post: 1877503" data-attributes="member: 9626">Sure I can see how the whole "bodies as cover" concept can work, but not for numbers as limited as just forty individuals, and the mob sub-type doesn't even really represent that scenario anyway,because it allows for the tracking of individual casualties in the mob by making them equal negative levels.  According to the template, individual-targetting effects that disable, like bardic fascinate spells, hold person, and the like will give the mob negative levels for every member of the mob so affected.  However, damage-dealing effects appear to work as normal, suggesting that fireballs and the like completely distribute their damage between every person in the mob, thus killing none of them!  It gets even weirder for individual effects.  According to the subtype, spells and effects that target individual creatures will also cause negative levels, but it also says that damage taken by the mob doesn't degrade its ability to attack or resist attack, which leads me to wonder what, exactly happens when a characters simply attacks the mob with a sword or similar weapon?  Does it down a member of the mob if the damage is sufficient, thus giving it a negative level?  Or does it just count as mob damage, leading again to the strange image of a barbarian's greatsword somehow nicking many, or even dozens of members of the mob per strike without actually killing anyone.The other major issue I have is the balance problem.  The increased attack value I can understand, mainly for the reasons Gort mentioned, but by turning 40 1 HD creatures into 1 40 HD one, it also gives the thing vastly higher saves, which not only makes it nigh-impossible to stop it using most nonlethal methods, but also leads to the oddly paradoxical conclusion that a mob of barely-sane individuals fighting in a jumbled, ineffeficient system are somehow better at Reflex Saves and often better at resisting magical compulsion than most highly-trained 20th level characters with superhuman wisdom and magical aid.And then there's the CRs given in the article in question.  According to the adventure, a 40 HD creatures with 260 hit points and an attack bonus of +30 is a CR 9.  Even with (theoretically) easy ways to give it negative levels, this seems obscenely strong for this CR.  I like the concept of the mob, but I can't see how to make a balanced version of it that also doesn't break suspension of disbelief.</blockquote>

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