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Opinions on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4ed?
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8075701" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>No, that's relativizing. It makes it seem like the issues with each edition are comparable.</p><p></p><p>I have played 1E, 2E and 4E. I don't deny 1E and 2E has specific issues. I emphatically disagree the issues with 4E is anywhere close to that. 1E and 2E were relatively simple games. 4E is not. It is a ramshackle construction that falls under its own weight as soon as you give it a real look.</p><p></p><p>I've played 4E for over a year, and the players have seen gameplay at 0 XP as well as many thousands of XP. I am no stranger to creating house rules, but I have simply given up - I have tried real hard to make 4E work (modding Advantage, the injury system, how armors and shield works, creating monsters, <a href="https://www.windsofchaos.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5" target="_blank">and so on and so on</a>), but I've realized the only way to do so is by <em>ripping out essentially everything that's new in 4E</em>.</p><p></p><p>Not even the new career system, with you purchasing points of characteristics and skills separately, works in the end - it's far too easy to max out, say, Fellowship and Charm, and essentially mind-control every hapless NPC (whose "defense" value of Will Power is easily crushable). Think of it like an edition of D&D where the developers suddenly allowed you to increase your attack bonus by another +10 or so - but completely forgot that everybody's AC stayed the same. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic. (D&D offers saving throws that increase automatically with your power for a reason, folks!)</p><p></p><p>As soon as you get to 70% or 80% in some skill (and remember, now you have a 70% or 80% chance at getting one or three extra success levels thanks to how Talents are designed!), you have basically won that interaction on walk-over - the GM can no longer offer any meaningful opposition (unless they in turn completely dominate your friends who didn't pursue that specific skill). It is yet one more idea that sounded cool but just doesn't work. It's at least three ideas that in isolation might come off as reasonable - "open-ended skill advances", "opposed checks", and "talent bonuses" - but when combined, just is a mess. 4E is that mess, over and over. Individual rules added with zero thought on how they integrate with every other new rule!</p><p></p><p>In the end, we all concluded 4E is trash and when we're starting a new campaign in a few weeks time (this time I'll be a player, not the GM) we will be using 2nd edition. It might not be the most exciting of systems, but it was written by somebody who knew what he was doing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8075701, member: 12731"] No, that's relativizing. It makes it seem like the issues with each edition are comparable. I have played 1E, 2E and 4E. I don't deny 1E and 2E has specific issues. I emphatically disagree the issues with 4E is anywhere close to that. 1E and 2E were relatively simple games. 4E is not. It is a ramshackle construction that falls under its own weight as soon as you give it a real look. I've played 4E for over a year, and the players have seen gameplay at 0 XP as well as many thousands of XP. I am no stranger to creating house rules, but I have simply given up - I have tried real hard to make 4E work (modding Advantage, the injury system, how armors and shield works, creating monsters, [URL='https://www.windsofchaos.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5']and so on and so on[/URL]), but I've realized the only way to do so is by [I]ripping out essentially everything that's new in 4E[/I]. Not even the new career system, with you purchasing points of characteristics and skills separately, works in the end - it's far too easy to max out, say, Fellowship and Charm, and essentially mind-control every hapless NPC (whose "defense" value of Will Power is easily crushable). Think of it like an edition of D&D where the developers suddenly allowed you to increase your attack bonus by another +10 or so - but completely forgot that everybody's AC stayed the same. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic. (D&D offers saving throws that increase automatically with your power for a reason, folks!) As soon as you get to 70% or 80% in some skill (and remember, now you have a 70% or 80% chance at getting one or three extra success levels thanks to how Talents are designed!), you have basically won that interaction on walk-over - the GM can no longer offer any meaningful opposition (unless they in turn completely dominate your friends who didn't pursue that specific skill). It is yet one more idea that sounded cool but just doesn't work. It's at least three ideas that in isolation might come off as reasonable - "open-ended skill advances", "opposed checks", and "talent bonuses" - but when combined, just is a mess. 4E is that mess, over and over. Individual rules added with zero thought on how they integrate with every other new rule! In the end, we all concluded 4E is trash and when we're starting a new campaign in a few weeks time (this time I'll be a player, not the GM) we will be using 2nd edition. It might not be the most exciting of systems, but it was written by somebody who knew what he was doing. [/QUOTE]
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