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<blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 4920698" data-attributes="member: 19675">You think 3.5 rewards optimization, you should look at point based systems like GURPS or HERO.And yet you still get &quot;suboptimal&quot; PCs even in those systems.Heck, I might take days squeezing points for a PC in HERO- my favorite system- and the only thing that would be optimal about it would be that the mechanics really reflect the way the PC is supposed to work.&nbsp; And that may mean he's the best damn gardener in the galaxy...and can't hit the broad side of a barn in combat.Agreed, 100%.There is also nothing wrong with being the party's weakest combatant, although for fun's sake, I would expect the Player &amp; PC to contribute meaningfully in other ways.&nbsp; Even if its just as comic relief.How you get to a dilemma after the first parts of this is a mystery to me...it doesn't follow.&quot;Optimization&quot; as ardoughter implies, doesn't have to mean &quot;perfectly geared for combat.&quot;&nbsp; It can also mean, as I illustrated earlier, that the player has worked to model the PC concept as fully as possible.The last PC I played in 3.5 was a straight-up PHB Sorcerer (w/2 level Ftr dip* for feats) who wore Scale Mail &amp; Shield and swung a Maul.&nbsp; His out?&nbsp; He used spells without somatic components and used the Draconic Breath Heritage feat.&nbsp; Its hardly a combat optimized build...and yet it was effective, evocative, and a blast to play.* And even that would have been a dip into Marshall had the class been allowed.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dannyalcatraz, post: 4920698, member: 19675"] You think 3.5 rewards optimization, you should look at point based systems like GURPS or HERO. And yet you still get "suboptimal" PCs even in those systems. Heck, I might take days squeezing points for a PC in HERO- my favorite system- and the only thing that would be optimal about it would be that the mechanics [I]really[/I] reflect the way the PC is supposed to work. And that may mean he's the best damn gardener in the galaxy...and can't hit the broad side of a barn in combat. Agreed, 100%. There is also nothing wrong with being the party's weakest combatant, although for fun's sake, I would expect the Player & PC to contribute meaningfully in other ways. Even if its just as comic relief. How you get to a dilemma after the first parts of this is a mystery to me...it doesn't follow. "Optimization" as ardoughter implies, doesn't have to mean "perfectly geared for combat." It can also mean, as I illustrated earlier, that the player has worked to model the PC concept as fully as possible. The last PC I played in 3.5 was a straight-up PHB Sorcerer (w/2 level Ftr dip* for feats) who wore Scale Mail & Shield and swung a Maul. His out? He used spells without somatic components and used the Draconic Breath Heritage feat. Its hardly a combat optimized build...and yet it was effective, evocative, and a blast to play. * And even that would have been a dip into Marshall had the class been allowed. [/QUOTE]

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