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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4920838" data-attributes="member: 35909">What about a situation that I, as a powergamer/rules lawyer, and many others (from my views of the char op boards) often take on: optimizing a generally &quot;underpowered&quot; class or concept to make it awesome.&nbsp; For example, Mistwell's excellent Inspire Courage optimization thread, proving that bards can in fact be scary.&nbsp; Or one of my favorite characters that actually broke Bull Rush (!)&nbsp; I find while partly for the challenge, often the reason we bother is to fit some flavor or character concept.&nbsp; In the case of my bull rusher (who used Knockback, mostly), I wanted to make a melee specialist that worshipped a homebrew god of martial arts, the performing arts, and flashiness in general, whom we named Chan in honor of the inspiration.&nbsp; In short, I wanted him to fight like a Tome of Battle character, without the maneuvers.&nbsp; I wanted him to also be a skilled rogue.&nbsp; So I made a martial rogue with some barbarian, and with the right feats had him tumbling around, sweeping enemies prone, smashing them literally 30+ ft back, into allies, and knocking them down like bowling pins.&nbsp; I could have accomplished that easier, but wanted a certain route and optimized to make it work.3E was the first edition of D&amp;D to have coherent rules for most topics that players could understand and use.&nbsp; That would be the only reason the system itself led to more optimizing.&nbsp; It's hard to optimize when there's less player choice and more DM fiat.&nbsp; Even so, I'd be shocked if in previous editions, on smaller scales, whenever a rule/houserule was established, players didn't try and use it to their benefit as much as possible.&nbsp; I recall a thread from a few months ago where a DM mentioned allowing a sack full of alchemist's fire to have the damage of each vial stack...and then the players wanted to take advantage of that constantly.&nbsp; To give an example of what I mean.Nice try at an edition war, though.&nbsp; What you lack in reasoning ability and knowledge you certainly make up for with passion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 4920838, member: 35909"] What about a situation that I, as a powergamer/rules lawyer, and many others (from my views of the char op boards) often take on: optimizing a generally "underpowered" class or concept to make it awesome. For example, Mistwell's excellent Inspire Courage optimization thread, proving that bards can in fact be scary. Or one of my favorite characters that actually broke Bull Rush (!) I find while partly for the challenge, often the reason we bother is to fit some flavor or character concept. In the case of my bull rusher (who used Knockback, mostly), I wanted to make a melee specialist that worshipped a homebrew god of martial arts, the performing arts, and flashiness in general, whom we named Chan in honor of the inspiration. In short, I wanted him to fight like a Tome of Battle character, without the maneuvers. I wanted him to also be a skilled rogue. So I made a martial rogue with some barbarian, and with the right feats had him tumbling around, sweeping enemies prone, smashing them literally 30+ ft back, into allies, and knocking them down like bowling pins. I could have accomplished that easier, but wanted a certain route and optimized to make it work. 3E was the first edition of D&D to have coherent rules for most topics that players could understand and use. That would be the only reason the system itself led to more optimizing. It's hard to optimize when there's less player choice and more DM fiat. Even so, I'd be shocked if in previous editions, on smaller scales, whenever a rule/houserule was established, players didn't try and use it to their benefit as much as possible. I recall a thread from a few months ago where a DM mentioned allowing a sack full of alchemist's fire to have the damage of each vial stack...and then the players wanted to take advantage of that constantly. To give an example of what I mean. Nice try at an edition war, though. What you lack in reasoning ability and knowledge you certainly make up for with passion. [/QUOTE]

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