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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 9697517" data-attributes="member: 6801252">One big thought I've had that informs my view of the debate (I'm an optimizer, except I'm actually mainly the GM) is the Legolas problem. The Legolas problem is that in a situation without deliberate optimization, two players sit down to DND and both come up with nornal good faith concepts-- player A wants to play against type and be an orc wizard, while player B decides to be an expy of Legolas. Player B will end up in a situation where they're playing an elf ranger or fighter, with a bow, and say "oh, Legolas would totally have these Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy things because duh, he's super cool with his bow, oh and he's really sneaky, so lets do high dexterity"Player A is in a situation where depending on what book they're using, they have an intelligence penalty and no actual benefits, nor even a bonus to dex to help their clothy AC. What the Legolas problem illustrates is that differences in power follow thematic lines in RPGs (until a sufficiently high level of optimization) and so you need system mastery to avert optimization to some degree. A stoner player, stoned during play and character building, yeeting fireballs is incredibley potent, because fireball is overtuned. I sort of detest that the game makes that whole to do necessary. Totally Unrelated, but I sure do love Pathfinder 2e ; )</blockquote>