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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6057819">And that's why we're having this discussion.I'm getting a distinct feeling of moving the goalposts here.  In 3.5, as in other editions or other games, some classes are significantly less powerful than others in various areas of the game.  To some this is a feature, not a bug, what it truly is will always be a matter of opinion, but if you build to any given classes strengths, utility wizards, skillful rogues, meatshield fighters, you are inherently optimizing.  What differentiates this from powerbuilding?  The desire to for more?Do they?  I think it's fair to say the expectations of people who power-build are as different as their results.  My friend, who specifically builds to "roll lots of dice" because he enjoys that sort of thing may always be looking for "more", but that doesn't make him a poor RPer, in fact his RP is some of the best in my game, among people who I generally regard as being very qualified RPers.  But back to "what they are looking for", to be better than anyone else?  Maybe.  He certainly does an incredible amount of damage.  Is he looking to have others look upon him as a God of the game?  No.  That's just his thing.  What does he expect the game to do about it?  Maybe he doesn't want a life-and-death challenge.  Even among non-optimizers how possible death should be varies.  Maybe he just wants to take on powerful monsters and kick ass?  Well, I give them that at times.  Does that justify his power-building?  No.  I would have done that anyway.  What's the point in being a hero if you don't do heroic things?If your players are finding that their playstyle is pointless, that's certainly an introspection issue, because the reasons are different for different people.  In your game, perhaps people really only want to be more awesome than anyone else, and if that is their case, I feel sorry for them.  It's a game played by people.  There is no objective answer, there cannot be, because perceptions differ, experiences differ.  As mathematical as the game gets, the only thing objective that can be said about power-builders is that their characters are powerful.Furthermore, I don't understand your objection to a player desiring for "more".  Isn't that why the game has levels?  Why stats increase?  Why classes provide more and greater options as a player progresses?  Why dungeon crawls, one-shots, and campaigns provide bigger and more impressive challenges?Speaking "objectivly", part of the purpose of D&D is to grow in power.  Be that power of the pen or the sword.  And the game provides incentive for players to want to keep progressing, a proverbial "carrot on a stick".  So to say that is it badwrongfun for a player to desire more is contrary to basic principles of the game.</blockquote>

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