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<blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 8535749" data-attributes="member: 6855114">That is why I said Eberron was a special case. But there are gods in Eberron nonetheless. Silent, yes. But they are there.Historically, Historically, as I was saying, faith alone would give you only 1st and 2nd level spells. So at best cure light wound at a whooping 1d8. To have any higher hopes of healing better, you needed a god (demi god would give you access to (up to) 5th level spells so cure critical wounds would be available and raise dead. And that was about the same until 3rd edition where Gods saw a bit less power to them so clerics did not need them as much... Was it a good change? I personally would say no. But it did have the effect of allowing more concept, so in a sense it was not a bad change either. Unfortunately, it also caused the cleric to be removed from the sole province of the gods and so was the healing aspect. This allowed bards (may they all be hanged) to become healers just as druid were now, all of a sudden, as good as the clerics too in the 5ed.This again brings the question: If clerics are not the best healers anymore, do we still need that class?If not: Keep the fighting holyman to the paladin class and be done with the clerics then as they were supposed, originally, to be what templars were (and the paladin was a late addition in D&amp;D, it came with the 1ed and not the D&amp;D) and are not needed anymore. If clerics are still relevant, then gods are there (depending on the setting, but base settings assume them). Not much more to say than that. And their presence (the gods) will explain a lot of things in the world.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Helldritch, post: 8535749, member: 6855114"] That is why I said Eberron was a special case. But there are gods in Eberron nonetheless. Silent, yes. But they are there. Historically, Historically, as I was saying, faith alone would give you only 1st and 2nd level spells. So at best cure light wound at a whooping 1d8. To have any higher hopes of healing better, you needed a god (demi god would give you access to (up to) 5th level spells so cure critical wounds would be available and raise dead. And that was about the same until 3rd edition where Gods saw a bit less power to them so clerics did not need them as much... Was it a good change? I personally would say no. But it did have the effect of allowing more concept, so in a sense it was not a bad change either. Unfortunately, it also caused the cleric to be removed from the sole province of the gods and so was the healing aspect. This allowed bards (may they all be hanged) to become healers just as druid were now, all of a sudden, as good as the clerics too in the 5ed. This again brings the question: If clerics are not the best healers anymore, do we still need that class? If not: Keep the fighting holyman to the paladin class and be done with the clerics then as they were supposed, originally, to be what templars were (and the paladin was a late addition in D&D, it came with the 1ed and not the D&D) and are not needed anymore. If clerics are still relevant, then gods are there (depending on the setting, but base settings assume them). Not much more to say than that. And their presence (the gods) will explain a lot of things in the world. [/QUOTE]

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