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Message: <blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 2279895" data-attributes="member: 463">>>So as far as I can tell, it seems that both your knightly orders are really extensions of the collective state - and by my half-baked DnD theories, I would think it would be hard to apply RL religious fighting orders to either group.<<Yes - thinking about it yesterday, the closest real-world parrallel I came up with was the Nazi Waffen SS, based on the concept of the medieval religious order but in fact an arm of state power. >>Well, exactly. And not only do the Kings recognize the significant powers of their own fighting order, but they would recognize the power of other king's as well. I don't think it would be unreasonable that eventually membership to a fighting order would be equated with membership to a state - and so membership in a rival knightly order might be equivalent to treason <<Yes - in the country of Thrinia itself, I don't have the social setup fully developed - I left it largely to Craig/Upper_Krust and he focussed mostly on the areas of interest to him like the high level NPCs' combat stats - but it seems like most of the rural landholding nobility are or will eventually be Thrinian Knights.  Thrin is a war god and will presumably seek to maintain the martial requirements of membership.  In the Overkingdom of Imarr I think either IKB or Thrinian Knights will be dominant in the end, one absorbing or destroying the other, or else the kingdom will split.>> especially as the role of the gods in their policy seems somewhat remote. WHen I said "move the heads of the orders" I meant to do so as a DM - depending on how permanent of a design decision this was in your campaign.<<This has all been developed in play over the past 12 years or so real-time, so it's an existing situation in-game.  I have PCs at all levels in the campaign world from 3rd through 18th to Deity (40+), all with their own agendas.>>On what basis to Odin and Ksarul align? Is it possible that both define a consistent set of beliefs/policies that could be treated as a whole? The priesthoods of these gods seem to be of little consequence, as I have mentioned. That's unorthodox (pardon the pun) compared to what I'm used to. Have you made a concious decision to limit the political power of clerics in your campaign?<<Hmm - the relation between Ksarul & Odin is mysterious and uncertain, shall we say, but certainly they seem to be discrete entities - Thrin certainly thinks so, he chats with Odin regularly <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> - "What do you see in that Tarkane, anyway?" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> The priesthood of Odin isn't very powerful or consequential, Odin gets most of his Worship Points from the actions of rulers like Tarkane & Sigurd.  The priesthood of Ksarul is powerful but internally divided between different factions - the Ndalu radicals have the powerful Clerics, but the Blue Light moderates include Queen-Empress Zalindra, who is a powerful figure in her own right.>>To me, the extremely signifcant attribute of the Pope in Medieval Europe was the he was the head of "Christendom". This theoretically put him at the top of the power heirarchy. He also had a tremendously strong religious and moral authority - excommunication was like a high level meteor swarm. Kings put up with him for that reason - IMO they were essentially his vassals - but very rebellious ones. When that situation changed (think Protestants) then I think that is a good example of actual religious differences - and in the case of Europe they were extremely violent. It's the Protestant vs. Catholic situation in Medieval Europe that I think resembles your campaign more than the situation of a Universal Church - but of course I could have misread some details due to the complexity of your campaign.<<I think you're right to a degree, but being a polytheistic setting it's arguably more like devotees of different Saints.  The churches of Odin & Thrin are allied - actually 'church' isn't even really a good word to describe the priests of Odin, they're not that organised.  There is religious rivalry between Thrinists & Odinists on the one hand and Ksarulists on the other but Tarkane insists that he reveres both Odin & Ksarul equally.>>In a "typical" kingdom that I envision, the former ruling family must have commanded some measure of loyalty that would make them extremely dangerous to whoever took over power. IMO former ruling families (and all identifiable decendants) would all be killed as first order of business by a new king, and any personal centers of power would probably have to be destroyed in order for the new king to be legitimately considered the head of the kingdom. So it's difficult for me to imagine the circumstances under which a former ruling family would be allowed to continue to operate a fighting order within a kingdom that they formerly ruled.<<Maybe in some kind of peaceful transition?  Certainly in a violent coup one side will want to wipe out the other.  Talking to Craig yesterday he/Thrin wants to 'corrupt' Tarkane's newborn son to Thrinism somehow to gain power peacefully when the son inherits.>> I supposed if they were voted out by Electors, but then I'd imagine that the new king would have to nerf their power as a matter of self preservation.<<Electors is a thought, the Overkingdom of Imarr is partly based on the Holy Roman Empire.  Do you know any references that give synopses of how the Elector system developed?  Currently I have what looks like a first-generation dictatorship, Tarkane obviously wants his son to succeed him without fuss.</blockquote>

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