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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BozzNugg" data-source="post: 6715117" data-attributes="member: 6801318">I see it as this:Arcane Magic is "legal magic". The world is written in SQL, and if you know the formulas you can edit them, declare that object to weigh ten pounds instead of five thousand, declare that bridge to be longer or that one to have a hole in it, declare Ulgrok the Butcher is a duck. It's very cerebral magic, and is completely unsuited to flashy effects like fireballs, magic missiles, or conjuring things out of thin air without them being an expansion of a nearby thing. It must also be used with care, as living creatures naturally reject changes made to them over time, and will regain their original form. Wizards can also use their superior minds to make tiny edits to how other creatures perceive their words, less likely to be noticed by the world than physical changes, and depending on the skill and intellect of the wizard this can make other creatures their puppets.Divine Magic is "creation magic". With the infinite power of the deities that created the world from nothing, you can create energy and matter alike. Conjuring objects, conjuring new flesh where once there was a wound, conjuring strikes of divine fire, divine magic is all about the power of creation and regeneration. Being connected to a higher being also allows those who use divine magic to request knowledge, giving them sight beyond sight through the eyes of a god. The most obviously "good" type of magic, divine magic can nontheless be used for evil by those who serve dark gods. After all, one does not have to summon forth angels from heaven, and a fireball will burn a man to death just as easily as it will a zombie.Psionic Power is "mind magic". Psions care absolutely nothing for the physical: their powers cannot start fires or conjure objects, or indeed harm your body in any way. Why should they, when they can control every aspect of the way the physical is perceived, when they can make you truly believe you are mortally wounded, or that you have always been their best friend, or simply drive you to gibbering madness? Psions, unsurprisingly, tend to be kind of a bunch of jerks. Expanding their own senses is, of course, also within the realm of psionics.Primal Magic is "life magic", the external version of martial power. You can adjust the life essence of another creature, to heal them, to strengthen them, or to change them, for good or ill. You can also conjure new life...or give life to something that should not yet live.Elemental Magic is "power magic". This is the power of dragons, creatures of such raw elemental power that their very breath can call forth floods of elemental energy. This is where the classic "blaster mage" is found, not the wizard. Sorcerers with their elemental magic can unleash fireballs, lightning bolts, waves of frost and acid. They can also remove energy, like the kinetic energy behind the swing of a sword, the magical energy that makes up a spell, or the energy that keeps your atoms bound together so that you don't dissolve into a pile of dust. When they warp objects the way the wizard does, it's through raw force rather than manipulating the object's internal properties, and the mana within living creatures shrugs off such brutish attempts.Shadow Magic is "entropic magic", the power to make reality break down. The dead are not supposed to walk, so you crack the rule that says they can't. You break down a creature's senses, make them see what you want them to see, or simply drive them to madness, though such a breaking down of the senses is obvious and unsuited for the subtlety of enchantment magic. You make magic, and creatures who oppose you even in the face of your illusions and hordes, cease to be. This is easily the most villainous type of magic, but a hero might find themselves burdened with it and the responsibility of determining what should and should not be destroyed.Martial Power is "internal magic", though after seeing it in other places I might refer to it as "King's Magic". Every creature has a flow of magical energy through them. It is what allows dragons to fly, what allows giants to support their own weight, what allows creatures like the troll to possess their exotic powers. Martial power comes from the understanding that you are a magical beast, just as much as all other creatures, but one that can understand itself and the magic within it. With understanding comes control, and the ability to fight with speed, strength, and endurance far beyond that of those who do not understand what they are truly capable of the way that you do. As you grow in strength, the amount of mana within yourself grows, until you are every bit the physical match of a mighty creature such as a dragon or a storm giant, one who can cut the mountain a cleric of an evil god might summon to drop upon you, or shrug off a necromancer's illusions because you, more than any other, know who you are. You are a legendary beast in the shape of a man.Bravissimo!I specially loved King's Magic. That's some food for though and roleplaying gold right there folks. Thank you, TrueMallowman.Maybe I should elaborate more I'd like to see the following-Arcane Power is associated with the mind and similar to Truemallow's legal magic, I think it should be based on some sort of coding analogue - divine law, weave of fate, or maybe the unity of life-force/mana/lifusuturimu (negentropy). Anyway, you can use magic to essentially short-cut these rules, the manner in which you do so determines your class to a large extent: Wizards deal with scholarly systems of belief to alter the current paradigm of reality, sorerers utilize the potency of their blood/heritage to forge a new world (an inborn connection to the 'weave' or whatever), artificers imbue items with such abilities via runes and alchemy, etc. In short, Arcane Power comes from tricking all observers (including fate itself) into believing the impossible. I like this approach because you can take a psychological (inner world), realistic (is it magic or is it just tricks?), or high fantasy (outer world) approach. I also like it, because it lends well to arcane power being tricky and potentially dangerous due to the world attempting to compensate for its use, a very common trope in most fantasy (though easily discarded if you just wanna do something where magic is commonplace and 'free' like Harry Potter). Mechanically, you can rely more on this kind of magic for powerful effects with relatively little cost, but as with any sort of 'easy' power, most users come to rely on it overmuch, forsaking other trepidations and usually unabalncing them in some way (to account for the whole 'no armour' thing, and the classic 'pinch-hitter' role arcane as typically played in the past).Patronic Power is associated with the soul and covers power granted by another being, its effects may be varied and can potentially overlap with all other power sources to some extent, but the individual Patron determines the adherent's breadth of ability, while the adherent's faith/piety determines their potency. This would obviously include traditional Divine classes, but also Primal ones like the Druid, and the sort of inverted divinity of the Primordials (Shugenjas, Sohei, Yamabushi, etc.), it could also include mortal (Sorcerer-Kings, Fey Court, etc.), dead (Atropals, Dead Gods, etc.) or dormant/immanent powers (Far Realm beings, Egregore, etc.) that are either served via Pact (Warlocks, Templars), or taken through treachery (Ur-Priests). I like this approach because it's very open but also self-limiting. You can include all kinds of mystical characters from different traditions, be they Judeo-Christian, Vedic, Buddhist, Animist, Mystery, Cthonic, or otherwise and again, you don't necessarily have to write them into the game in such a way as to stick out as a weeaboo or 'exotic' class or something. Mechanically, I could see mostly encounter level effects, with some sort of sacrifice being needed to get either more power effects of the same level, or access to higher level powers. I think as long as one can perform these Prayers/Rites/Invocations (at-will/encounter/daily), they are less limited in when and how they 'cast' them. This accounts for the 'armoured' mid-line most such characters have occupied but allows for all sorts of variety depending on Patron, from Cloistered Cleric, to Skulking Warlock, to Imperious Templar, to Predatory Druid.Martial Power... is self-explanatory and associated with the body.Psionic Power arises from a balance of the 3 other sources (mind, body, soul) and serves to 'augment' them in various ways. The effects of psionics are more malleable but less powerful at base, though they can contend with the other sources when combined with natural ability in one of the those areas of influence... in this way, one might call Psionics the power of Synergy but, because psionics is, by its nature, synergistic (combing body, mind, and soul), by expending more resources, oe can temporarily bring their Psionic Power up to the same level of potency as the other power sources as well. I'd like to see a chakra system implemented for channeling Psionics, it could be optional, but as a default it wouldn't be bad either. 7 Chakras = 7 Discplines (including Metapsionics), again, this allows for 'eastern' archetypes without resorting to orientalist stereotypes. It also allows us to reconcile the 4e 'psionic monk' with more traditional versions, while opening up flavourful new options for Psioncs, Ardents, SoulBlades, etc. Mechanically, I'd like to see power points come back but with the chakra system being more developed to differentiate sub-builds of classes via features. For a Psion, say, perhaps if they are a Psychokineticist, when they channel power points through their root chakra to manifest psychokinetic powers, they do so at an advantage, with their points counting for more, allowing easier augmentation. Likewise, if the Root Chakra is keyed to the Soul (Patronic Power), perhaps there could be powers that augment your own or other's Prayers/Rites/etc.?Now, I think Shadow could exist, but it's defined by the absence of the above. However, the actual classes of shadow could still be folded into the above as their complement, so a Necromancer or a Shadow Binder could be Arcane Shadow class, while an Ur-Priest something could be a Patronic Shadow class?I will write more tomorrow, hope to conversation doesn't move too fast. I just work too much to devote anymore time right now.By Interfaces I meant how one interacts with 'Sources' to create 'Power.' Rituals, Pacts, Meditation, etc. come to mind as examples but as I think of it more, perhaps one could consider the trinity of mind, body, and soul, to be the Prime Interfaces, with rituals and pacts could simply be methodologies? Sources might be broader and include the longer list that Truemallow provided (Elemental, Shadow, Ki, etc.) I was wondering if I should keep some or all of these elements (Sources, Power, Interfaces [Methods]) hard-wired to each other or break them apart so we could model them as game components/mechanics... and how.I thought 'fluff' was a better place to start when conceptualizing mechanics, because it has to be inclusive. If we could come up with an easy plug-and-play conceptual system that still indicates solid mechanical direction or inspiration, then the crunch will be that much easier to develop.Aha, now we're talking. This is (yet another) one of the most fascinating parts of D&D to me. The wizard doesn't get his spells back by sleeping, or waiting 8 seconds for the little loading shadow to make a full circuit on his fireblast icon. He gets to cast his spells after spending a minute on each one, memorizing it and mentally preparing himself to perform the casting. That's the sort of emphasis on 'downtime' action you don't see in modern games, and it might as well be called the interface.Does the ability to cast arcane spells require you to get a full night's rest and spend minutes on end memorizing them? Is that a trait of casting arcane spells, or a trait of being a wizard? It's a good question.I tentatively suggest (as I am not convinced one way or the other) that the interface is hard-coded into the power list. If you cast spells, you have to deal with saving them throughout the entire day and preparing them, no matter who you are. On top of this, you can attach class-based augments to the standard interface. Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics (just for example) all get to prepare spells, but only Wizards get a voluminous spellbook, only Sorcerers can hurt themselves in exchange for overchanneling the spell, and only Clerics can aim their harmful spells at allies and deliver domain-based buffs instead of pain. (I'm not saying that's how divine magic should work necessarily.)And while we're near the subject, and before I forget, Warlocks need to bargain with their patron(s) for more power every short rest. THAT'S why invocations are commonly agreed to be encounter powers. Take a leaf straight from Tome of Magic and make those guys break mirrors, burn goat heads and draw squigglies on the ground, that's what I say. The new interaction mechanics proposed in the latest L&L are a perfect fit for this.Yes I thought the new L&L article put forth some interestin ideas and seems like they definitely processed quite few of the suggestions made when they last asked about these pillars. So as I understand it:Sources can be various and might include: Martial, Mana/Negentropy, Weave of Fate, Divine, Elemental, Primal, Synergy/Ki, and Shadow/Entropy (and maybe others)Interfaces are much more limited being mind, body, soul, balance (and imbalance?), which lay down the basic mechanics for Power(s) to be differentiated (Martial, Arcane, Patronic, Psionic) but within each Interface (MAPP), there are various Methods, which connote classes (A Wizard's Spell Book, A Druid's Rites, a Cleric's Prayers, a Psion's Meditation, a Monk's Forms, etc.)Powers then contain the specifics of use, e.g You must spend 1 hour burning an albino goat's head at sunrise to gain the use/effect of this Spell/Prayer/Power/Invocation...Well I like the hard-wiring of Powers to Methods, but I kind of think Sources and Interfaces should be somewhat more hard-wired in some cases: obviously Martial and Martial and maybe Psionic with Psionic/Syngergy/Ki. Arcane and Patronic could be a bit more broad I think.As I understand it, it is the mechanical limitation, or gateway, to a list of powers. The spell list is a list of powers, and they're balanced (ostensibly) to function as daily powers. A wizard's 'interface' with the spell list is his spellbook, his ability to learn spells, and his ability to prepare spells known for use during the day.Say, for instance, a rogue had tricks that let him use his skill die in unique ways. The tricks themselves are powers, the skill die is the resource, and the rogue's class feature that gave him access tricks is his interface. What's interesting about this example is its utter simplicity compared to the wizard, as a skill die can't be expended and these powers are essentially always available. An interface could literally be 'you choose x powers at x level', and that would be that. This is in part dependent on the frequency of the resource.It is worth noting that as far as I'm concerned, a source is just fluff and has no bearing on the other elements of the design--though you can certainly take mechanical cues from the story of arcane magic or divine magic or what have you. If you decide all interfaces of the arcane source have to do with preparation after a long rest, then that's an arbitrary decision, but a valid one.And I have no idea what methods are. A specific interface, it looks like, but I don't think the additional term is necessary.So why go to the trouble? What's the good of defining interfaces if all they do is let you use your powers?Well for one thing, it's interesting. For another, it is a distinct unit of character design--a unit that can be isolated, understood, and is in fact absolutely vital and irreplaceable; there just has to be one there, no matter how simple it is.Now that we know what it is, we can play with it. Maybe a warlock's interface is a social interaction challenge. Every short rest, they have to bargain more magical favors from their patron, and that carries with it all the attendant risks and requirements you'd expect from the hypothetical interaction rules.In a case like that, of course, you'd have to balance the powers and the resource such that it's worth the risk bargaining, and probably ensure something interesting happens even if the warlock bombs his interaction.As I understand it, It is the mechanical limitation, or gateway, to a list of powers. The spell list is a list of powers, and they're balanced (ostensibly) to function as daily powers. A wizard's 'interface' with the spell list is his spellbook, his ability to learn spells, and his ability to prepare spells known for use during the day.So, arbitrary implementation of vague flavor?It is the exact definition of arbitrary, but that doesn't make it any less vital. Prepared, memorized, bargained or simply granted, there has to be some sort of interface.I get where your head's at, and I dislike overly specialized verbiage as much as the next shade of blue, but here it fills a hole that's always been in every class, so there's a utility to defining the hole.But then, I'm the kind of guy who thinks there is (or rather, there can and should be) a distinct and very discernable demarcation between a class feature, a feat, and a trait, so I might be a little too anal-retentive to hold much of a popular opinion on this issue of terminology.A Little List might be useful here. I've added a '?' for classes I could see being integrated into others or Methods that I'm unsure of:Arcane Classes: Interface with Sources via 'reality hacking.' Utilize various Methods to do so. Artificer/Alchemist/Runesmith - CraftingBard - PerformanceGish?Sorcerer - BloodlineWizard - Spellbook/SchoolPatronic Classes: Interface with Sources via 'pacts/patronage.' Utilize various Methods to do so.Cleric - Divine DomainsDruid - Circle InitiationPaladin/Warden/Blackguard/Sohei - Vows (I think these are more suitable than 'Oaths,' which just strike me as too secular-seeming.Ranger - TotemsShugenja - Elemental SpheresTemplar? - Obviously needed for DS but I honestly think if we could reconcile it, this would be the best name for the Paladin/Warden/Blackguard/etc class with those names being used for sub-classes.Ur-Priest - Ethereal Manipulation (needs better name, essentially, they steal power from other patronic sources via the Ethereal Plane) could be arcane?Warlock - PactPsionic Classes: (Though I think we should focus our efforts on Arcane and Patronic first).Monk - StylePsion - DisciplinesSoulknife?Wilder - SurgingFeel free to let me know if I've missed any, or argue for one's inclusion in another list.</blockquote>

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