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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7632059" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Cynically, I've heard DM's on youtube or on blogs speak of OSR as the fun being that the PC's are helpless to avoid their machinations. There is a certain class of DM, and a certain class of content provider, that seems to delight in modules where the PCs have no real agency, the universe is vastly beyond their comprehension, everything is random whim, and they are vastly outclassed by the NPC's around them and limited in their resources and ultimately doomed to horrid deaths.</p><p></p><p>Gleeful fun for a certain class of GM no doubt, but as a player all that gets old in a hurry.</p><p></p><p>I've been playing D&D since the early 80's. I'm not completely baffled by the OSR nostalgia, as I can certainly point to my own variations of it in writing rules and adventures for 1e AD&D or from that mindset. But on the other hand, I'm completely baffled by the OSR as it actually exists. I played in that era. I understand pretty fully all that can and will go wrong with the system and why most people got frustrated with it and ultimately abandoned it. I do understand that it gets a lot right and could in theory be fixed.</p><p></p><p>But so much of the OSR seems not devoted to fixing it but celebrating its brokenness.</p><p></p><p>Could you have fun with that character? Yes. Once. For a while until the novelty of it wears off. The second time you roll one up though will be drudgery and you'll be reduced to suicidal play to try to get a better character. At some point, our group eventually realized that the character funnel was nonsense, because it was distraction from what we really wanted to do which was play a character we would actually enjoy playing for a substantial time. We all had fun stories to share about our crappy characters, but it was the non-crappy characters that survived the funnel that we actually cherished and desired.</p><p></p><p>4d6 drop the lowest is a horrible method. You will abandon it one way or the other, if not now then in a year or three years. You'll either find a method with less randomness or your group will tacitly accept cheating:"Yes I did roll two 18's for my character (on the 18th character that I rolled up)", "Yes I did roll two 18's for my character (after I rerolled the 7 that was ruining the character it luckily was an 18).", "Yes I did roll two 18's for my character (it was a 2 sixes and 2 threes, but I figured close enough)."</p><p></p><p>The OSR thief is a travesty of terrible design. I only figured this out after playing thieves for 10 years.</p><p></p><p>First level requires kid gloves by the DM if you aren't going to have half or more of the party die before 1st level. This is true even in later editions, but it's particularly bad in OSR. Plan on playing two characters as a viable answer, and the survivor being the character you commit to. I even had situations where a player lost both characters and a player took over another players other character. As a GM, if you don't want to just prove how easily you can slaughter the PC, you do a lot of "squash the rats" type stuff until they get their second or even third HD.</p><p></p><p>If you are trying to be fair as a GM, OSR is a nightmare to run. If you don't care and just are willing to run the game however you think is fun, well nothing validates that quite like OSR.</p><p></p><p>Really, I tried running a 1e AD&D game a few years back and it was really shocking just how badly it played compared to a modern rules set or that I put up with it for more than 10 years. I mean there are things I do love about it and I know how to improvise, it's just that I hate having to improvise every freaking thing. That's way too much heavy lifting that distracts from playing the game. Of course, if you are a seat of the pants type of GM that doesn't give a rip about the players and imagine you are vastly more entertaining than you are, that probably doesn't bother you, but I'm honestly I'm as much at a loss as to why OSR is a thing as you are. </p><p></p><p>Again, I get the 'rules light' stripped down game desire. What I don't get is the love of warts. If you are going to strip the game down and rebuild it, build it around the still solid old school 8 cylinder engine - not around the rusted body and the kitschy 70's interior.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7632059, member: 4937"] Cynically, I've heard DM's on youtube or on blogs speak of OSR as the fun being that the PC's are helpless to avoid their machinations. There is a certain class of DM, and a certain class of content provider, that seems to delight in modules where the PCs have no real agency, the universe is vastly beyond their comprehension, everything is random whim, and they are vastly outclassed by the NPC's around them and limited in their resources and ultimately doomed to horrid deaths. Gleeful fun for a certain class of GM no doubt, but as a player all that gets old in a hurry. I've been playing D&D since the early 80's. I'm not completely baffled by the OSR nostalgia, as I can certainly point to my own variations of it in writing rules and adventures for 1e AD&D or from that mindset. But on the other hand, I'm completely baffled by the OSR as it actually exists. I played in that era. I understand pretty fully all that can and will go wrong with the system and why most people got frustrated with it and ultimately abandoned it. I do understand that it gets a lot right and could in theory be fixed. But so much of the OSR seems not devoted to fixing it but celebrating its brokenness. Could you have fun with that character? Yes. Once. For a while until the novelty of it wears off. The second time you roll one up though will be drudgery and you'll be reduced to suicidal play to try to get a better character. At some point, our group eventually realized that the character funnel was nonsense, because it was distraction from what we really wanted to do which was play a character we would actually enjoy playing for a substantial time. We all had fun stories to share about our crappy characters, but it was the non-crappy characters that survived the funnel that we actually cherished and desired. 4d6 drop the lowest is a horrible method. You will abandon it one way or the other, if not now then in a year or three years. You'll either find a method with less randomness or your group will tacitly accept cheating:"Yes I did roll two 18's for my character (on the 18th character that I rolled up)", "Yes I did roll two 18's for my character (after I rerolled the 7 that was ruining the character it luckily was an 18).", "Yes I did roll two 18's for my character (it was a 2 sixes and 2 threes, but I figured close enough)." The OSR thief is a travesty of terrible design. I only figured this out after playing thieves for 10 years. First level requires kid gloves by the DM if you aren't going to have half or more of the party die before 1st level. This is true even in later editions, but it's particularly bad in OSR. Plan on playing two characters as a viable answer, and the survivor being the character you commit to. I even had situations where a player lost both characters and a player took over another players other character. As a GM, if you don't want to just prove how easily you can slaughter the PC, you do a lot of "squash the rats" type stuff until they get their second or even third HD. If you are trying to be fair as a GM, OSR is a nightmare to run. If you don't care and just are willing to run the game however you think is fun, well nothing validates that quite like OSR. Really, I tried running a 1e AD&D game a few years back and it was really shocking just how badly it played compared to a modern rules set or that I put up with it for more than 10 years. I mean there are things I do love about it and I know how to improvise, it's just that I hate having to improvise every freaking thing. That's way too much heavy lifting that distracts from playing the game. Of course, if you are a seat of the pants type of GM that doesn't give a rip about the players and imagine you are vastly more entertaining than you are, that probably doesn't bother you, but I'm honestly I'm as much at a loss as to why OSR is a thing as you are. Again, I get the 'rules light' stripped down game desire. What I don't get is the love of warts. If you are going to strip the game down and rebuild it, build it around the still solid old school 8 cylinder engine - not around the rusted body and the kitschy 70's interior. [/QUOTE]
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