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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7633239" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>You have no way to imagine how much I loved the 3e Rogue. I nearly cried when I read the rules.</p><p></p><p>So, on one hand, you are right. The baseline difficulty of climbing a nearly sheer wall in 3e is DC 20, and a 1st edition 1st level thief would have probably had a better chance of success at it than a 3e 1st level Rogue. But, neither would have been able to do it reliably at that point, and the 3e rogue would hit the point where they had a +19 bonus on climb and could not only reliably climb a nearly sheer wall but dare climb walls much less climbable. And before then you'd hit the +14 point where you could climb rough walls and the +9 point where you could climb things with hand holds.</p><p></p><p>And yes, you were no longer the only character that could climb walls so you weren't 'special', but you were outright the most skillful character with the most skills. And by contrast, to show you how crapped on the Thief was in AD&D, when they introduced NWP's as the first proto-skill system, the Thief got the fewest of them and earned the fewest as they increased in levels. </p><p></p><p>The 3e skill system wasn't perfect. It was IMO still too conservative, and the authors were still too obviously afraid of allowing mere skills to do useful things, but it was an amazing step in the right direction both in terms of the viability of the rogue archetype and in terms of adjudicating all these actions as a DM.</p><p></p><p>The niche-protection remained a problem.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7633239, member: 4937"] You have no way to imagine how much I loved the 3e Rogue. I nearly cried when I read the rules. So, on one hand, you are right. The baseline difficulty of climbing a nearly sheer wall in 3e is DC 20, and a 1st edition 1st level thief would have probably had a better chance of success at it than a 3e 1st level Rogue. But, neither would have been able to do it reliably at that point, and the 3e rogue would hit the point where they had a +19 bonus on climb and could not only reliably climb a nearly sheer wall but dare climb walls much less climbable. And before then you'd hit the +14 point where you could climb rough walls and the +9 point where you could climb things with hand holds. And yes, you were no longer the only character that could climb walls so you weren't 'special', but you were outright the most skillful character with the most skills. And by contrast, to show you how crapped on the Thief was in AD&D, when they introduced NWP's as the first proto-skill system, the Thief got the fewest of them and earned the fewest as they increased in levels. The 3e skill system wasn't perfect. It was IMO still too conservative, and the authors were still too obviously afraid of allowing mere skills to do useful things, but it was an amazing step in the right direction both in terms of the viability of the rogue archetype and in terms of adjudicating all these actions as a DM. The niche-protection remained a problem. [/QUOTE]
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