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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7633900" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>After 35 years of playing, I can sit down at a table and within an hour or two tell if a player is cheating without ever once observing his dice. I just know what normal dice rolls are like and can tell immediately if the players run of luck isn't normal. That player and the other players at the table, even though they are sitting at the table and using the same rules are playing vastly different games.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, after 35 years of running a game, when I sit down and play as a player, I can tell almost immediately what is happening on the other side of the DM's screen and what thought processes went into the design and play of the game. Again, same rules, yet often vastly different games.</p><p></p><p>I admit being able to 'see the strings' being pulled and otherwise always being cognizant of the part of play that is a game harms my emersion and hence harms my ability to enjoy the game somewhat, but after this much experience it's sort of inevitable. I have the same problem with plot holes and dungeons that ignore economic sense. Often it's really annoying, and I wish I could go back to being that player that doesn't see everything or that DM that could just make a dungeon that was utter nonsense - right up until I see other players responding to plot holes and nonsensical scenes because they learned from me an expectation that things are coherent and not superficial.</p><p></p><p>As you said, GM illusionism only works if the players can't see the strings attached to them. It's like playing a game where you throw the game to let that person win. Most people are only going to enjoy that if they don't realize that you threw the game. Or it's like Mass Effect where the game is letting you make choices, and as long as you can imagine that those choices really matter that it's really immersive and compelling, but the more you replay the game and the closer you get to the end the more you realize none of it actually makes a difference. At that point, you really better have some other aesthetic of play you can enjoy, because the carpet has been pulled out from under a big part of why you were playing.</p><p></p><p>Often times I will ask for advice from other GMs, particularly if it is a system I haven't run much before, and the most frequent advice I get when I question something boils down to "just use a lot of illusionism to make it work anyway". Maybe that works for some groups, but for me that's all card tricks that I can see through and less is much better than more. I might be impressed by your skill at pulling the trick, but I'm going to be impressed even more if you don't need to do so or I can't see the trick.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7633900, member: 4937"] After 35 years of playing, I can sit down at a table and within an hour or two tell if a player is cheating without ever once observing his dice. I just know what normal dice rolls are like and can tell immediately if the players run of luck isn't normal. That player and the other players at the table, even though they are sitting at the table and using the same rules are playing vastly different games. Likewise, after 35 years of running a game, when I sit down and play as a player, I can tell almost immediately what is happening on the other side of the DM's screen and what thought processes went into the design and play of the game. Again, same rules, yet often vastly different games. I admit being able to 'see the strings' being pulled and otherwise always being cognizant of the part of play that is a game harms my emersion and hence harms my ability to enjoy the game somewhat, but after this much experience it's sort of inevitable. I have the same problem with plot holes and dungeons that ignore economic sense. Often it's really annoying, and I wish I could go back to being that player that doesn't see everything or that DM that could just make a dungeon that was utter nonsense - right up until I see other players responding to plot holes and nonsensical scenes because they learned from me an expectation that things are coherent and not superficial. As you said, GM illusionism only works if the players can't see the strings attached to them. It's like playing a game where you throw the game to let that person win. Most people are only going to enjoy that if they don't realize that you threw the game. Or it's like Mass Effect where the game is letting you make choices, and as long as you can imagine that those choices really matter that it's really immersive and compelling, but the more you replay the game and the closer you get to the end the more you realize none of it actually makes a difference. At that point, you really better have some other aesthetic of play you can enjoy, because the carpet has been pulled out from under a big part of why you were playing. Often times I will ask for advice from other GMs, particularly if it is a system I haven't run much before, and the most frequent advice I get when I question something boils down to "just use a lot of illusionism to make it work anyway". Maybe that works for some groups, but for me that's all card tricks that I can see through and less is much better than more. I might be impressed by your skill at pulling the trick, but I'm going to be impressed even more if you don't need to do so or I can't see the trick. [/QUOTE]
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