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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 147219" data-attributes="member: 1149">[/B]</blockquote>Right, tho actually last time i checked 6 1/2 d6 for 33 points was Ok too, but thats niether here nor there.Actually i believe i stated it was to remove him as a threat. Its the HERO notion that you have to kill him.i am pointing out that from an attack perspective, turning him into a carp that will eventually suffocate and knocking him out with an attack that he cannot wake up from in most cases before he can be thumped easily is close enough to the same thing. If you presume your attack HAS TO KILL thats great, but most Fh and even champions fights i ever saw knocking them down was enough. its particularly true for a commoner whose first recovery would be vs con stun and later he would get a recovery vs the actual stun damage. that should be a whole turn, unless he took damage.Maybe in your fantasy games you keep hitting unconscious people for fun, but in most fights i have seen, HERo or DND, you move on. (Exception is some supers.)Why in thwe world woul i do this in the middle of a fight? knock them down and if after 3 more actions i havent had to come back to him pop him again to keep him stunned. You are maiing nonsensical assumptions, ignoring the tactical efficiency of taking him down and killing him later, which is common practice in most fights, dnd or hero.Does your point only work if we assume stupidity?He is removed for at least a turn. That gives me several actions to hit others before i might want to hit him another time. The second shot will knock him into 'wont wake up for the combat" and so i can kill him after the fight.Come on, why suddenly does common sense tactics have to drop off the planet for the "other side?"Assumes i let him go or lose the fight.It takes time to suffocate. In hero, iirc, a long time. IF he has support, he can be untransformed. So i now need four attacks to drop a commoner with poly.That seems really efficient.wonder how many guys will spend MORE points for an attack that costs more, spends more endurance and takes 4 times as long.As i recall, typical mages had endurance scores around 40. this spell over four phases would cost 16 endurance alone. or i could have thrown one attackm for three endurance and knocked him out for a turn.again, do we see the problem here? Which attack is more efficient? DAMAGEWhich attack takes less time? Damagewhich attack takes less endurance? damagewhich attack costs less? damageyeah,m those points seem to be working all right!yes, so now to carp the commoner, we spend 24 endurance over 6 phases vs 3 endurance over 1 phase to knock him out for the same time. During those 6 phases he has the opportunity to get out of range or break line of sight etc. this means i still have to pay attention to him.Again, this does not seem to be worth it by comparison to just blastiung him once for 3 end and maybe blasting him a second time for another 3 to keep him down.Does it to you? Do you see these attacks used often in lieu of the basic bolt from the blue do damage things? Yeah but while he is spending 4 more endurance per phase to keep this up, mr blaster is spending 3 per phase blasting someone else.C'mon, i cannot believe you are reallyu trying to sell this as efficient.How much bloody experience are you talking about?he would need 6 times the continuous or four times the other.What size Eb would he then have? The eb is more efficient. it is the preferred method of handling it by the rules. i would be overhoyed if the enemy used these silly mutlti round transforms instead of eb's. for 5 points of power defense i can shut them down for good. it would take them 21 points of force field (pay endurance for that too) to stop my EB.Are you seriously trying to say that poly attacks like this ARE efficient by hero rules? that they are viable alternative in fantasy games to the simpler Eb style attacks? if so, sorry but you dont have a clue.No, i am trying to make it a viable attack when compared to the basic "do damage duh" hero prefers. Having it take 25% more endurance per strike AND take 4-6 times as long is ridiculousm its not effective as a combat tool by comparison. You guys want to keep saying emulate DND, dont you?That depends on how many spells he uses. Many spells in DND have long durations and will last through many combats. Mage armor, bull strength etc, greater magic weapon, etc etc etc.END is a tactical limit. it limits the amount you can do in a single combat. Unless you have points to burn you will be spending END for a defense (force field(, an attack and perhaps a movement power as well.  In most fantasy games i have seen a wizard will have to conserve his power in a decent combat or he will start running short. DND provides a strategic limit but you can unload your entre wad for one fight if the circumstance permit.These are two different limits, each with their own plusses and minuses.While the penalties for END are different they are still quite real, and as such make for an interesting counterpoint when the "but we can cast over and over and over" comments start flying without a truth counter point.but i am not trying to make  the system DND.Thats nice and well and good but since that straw man was created entirely by you i am glad it only took you this long to beat it down.yes Fh can do anything dnd can do as long as you toss out the points. But the points are the heart and soul of the HERO system.if i am gonna allow transformer man unlimited points to get his one shot poly but am gonna limit fireboy to normal levels so they can compete, the points have lost their meaning.In theory yes, but not in practice. there are a number of not at all uncommon things which hero points out of the market compared to damage spells which will serve the tactical need just fine.You showed it yourself when the best tactical poly took 4-6 times as long, cost more, used 4-6 times the endurance as an equally efficient at taking down the target Eb.even that ignores the fact that the defense to stop the Eb (21 ED probably from an end using force field)will cost 4x the defense to stop the transforms (5 power defense with no end cost.).its just that simple.PS: reading the boards, i have seen a new HERO5ism... now damage shield requires an additional +1 continuous for most attack forms. So now fire shield is also priced out of the realm of most games, since its damage will cost 2.5 times the amount of a normal eb even before we buy the protections.So much for the demon sheathed in flame that it hurts to hit.ohh but wait, maybe another SBP damage shield... DS+cont+0end+NND+AF turns a 2d6 Eb into a 2d6-10d6 Ko machine but still for around 65-70 pts?[/QUOTE]

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