Other Options for Prestige Classes Other than Saying No

[airwalkrr]

While I realize prestige classes are technically an optional rule, they can add a lot of flavor to the game. But they can also disrupt balance. Let's face it, most prestige classes (or at least the ones players usually want to play) are more powerful than the base classes. I want to keep the idea of prestige classes (classes that are specialized in one way or another and reward focused training) because I like the flavor they add, but I want to limit them so that they are less disruptive to balance. Here are some of my ideas.

1) Prestige classes are really just variants of another base class or classes. The player can trade class features of his base class for prestige class abilities by fulfilling the prerequisites. For example, a fighter who has fulfilled the prerequisites for dwarven defender can take a dwarven defender ability in exchange for a fighter bonus feat. Or a rogue who has fulfilled the prerequisites for assassin can take an assassin ability in exchange for trap sense, improved uncanny dodge, skill points, or a rogue special ability.

2) No player may have more than one active prestige class. If a player wishes to take a new prestige class, he automatically loses all benefits of the previous prestige class. Alternately, a player is only allowed one prestige, period. This can be explained by saying a prestige class represents particular devotion to one's skills and studies and if one falls out of practice by focusing their attention too heavily on another discipline, they lose those abilities.

3) Stacking saving throws have to go. The +2 bonus for the 1st level in a class with a good save is ridiculous and leads to way too many saving throw bonuses for characters with many classes. (This is more a problem of multiclassing than anything, but it is exaggerated when PCs can take levels in even more prestige classes.) The only time a character gets the +2 bonus at 1st level of a class for a good saving throw is if that is the character's first level. Otherwise, the bonus is +0 and scales accordingly. So a 5th level rogue taking an assassin level would gain no saving throw bonus, but upon gaining a 2nd level in assassin, the Reflex saving throw bonus would increase by +1.

Do you have any other ideas for keeping prestige classes manageable other than just saying no?

 

[Drawmack]

First of all, realize that you are the DM and what you say goes. So if you have a player attempting to stack prestige classes, you can just say no.

I like prestige classes, I think they bring a great role-playing element to the game. Instead of rules changes to control them I use flavor and story-line to control them. The basis of how it works is that prestige classes are gained by affiliation with an organization. Here's the rational:

Classes, basically are a characters profession. This being the case, they all require training - we just don't play this out in game. For the core classes (any core classes you're using) it is assumed that there are so many people around who have that profession that the training can be gained easily just about anywhere. Prestige classes are another story.

So you can learn to become a rogue just about anywhere from a vast number of people. However, the local thieves guild has specialists. If you want to become a specialist you have to learn it from someone in the gild. To learn it from someone in the guild, you have to be a member of the guild and they have to offer to teach it to you. Being a member of the guild means following the guild's rules and regulations. I'm sure from this little bit you can see how much role-playing you can get out of giving someone a prestige class.

In game it works like this. A player wants a prestige class for their character. The player informs the DM. Then it is up to the DM if/when the oportunity for this player to become a member of the prestigue class gets worked into the storyline.

YMMV

 

[comrade raoul]

Some version of (3) is such a sensible rule that many of the groups I've been in have just assumed that it (like fractional base attack bonuses) was house-ruled in by default. So here's how I've always calculated saves and BAB, and how I think everyone should (it's criminal it's not in a sidebar somewhere in the PH, or at least in Unearthed Arcana):

1. Get +1 to your BAB for every level you have in a class with a "good" progression (like the fighter), +3/4 for every level you have in a class with a "fair" progression (like the rogue), and +1/2 for every level you have in a class with a "poor" progression (like the wizard). Once you've added all the values, round any fractions down.
2. For each saving throw, get +1/2 to that save for every level you have in a class with a "good" progression (like the fighter's Fortitude save) for that save, and +1/3 for every level you have in a class with a "fair" prgression (like the fighter's Reflex save).
3. If you have at least one level in a class with a good progression in a given saving throw, you get a +2 "kicker" bonus to that save.

Identical for single-classed characters; smooth, intuitive, and easy for multi-classed characters.

(So your rogue 5/assassin 1 has a base Reflex save of +5, just like a 6th-level rogue.)

Beyond that, I'd say, just be careful about which classes you allow. If a prestige class is straightforwardly better than a core class, or enables some combination of abilities that is straightforwardly better than what's achievable by multiclassed characters with just levels in core classes, that prestige class is too good.

 

[Bacris]

Regardless of 2 or 3, use fractional saving throws. comrade raoul already outlined the basics in his point 2.

As for just not allowing it - I think limiting to at most 1 PrC in a career is fair - unless there are PrCs that sort of make sense together. For example, a wizard / loreseeker could easily make sense as an archmage. The problem with this is it's sort of ad-hoc in what combinations make sense... But having mandated RP requirements can help alleviate this - if the Order of the Bow doesn't condone the abilities of the Deepwood Sniper, then you can't really play the two

For prestige classes that you feel are "too good", my recommendation is tweak them. If it's a spellcasting class, take out that first level of spellcaster progression. If it's a fighting class, maybe drop the HD by 1 dice factor or re-evaluate the class features to see which portion stands out as the "most" problematic.

The other side of the coin, although this is more work for you as a DM, is remember that your NPCs can be just as crazily-built as your PCs. Sure, the party wizard might be a wizard / initiate of the seven fold veil / incantatrix, but the BBEG they face might be a psion / thrallherd with a ranger / tempest / dervish thrall

 

[smootrk]

Just limit PRC to 1 until the class finished (3, 5, or 10 levels). That will stop some of your dipping-in problems. If characters are dipping into standard classes (multiclassing) too much then make sure you enforce the XP penalty rules. That bites them in the a$$ when they start diversifying too much.

I don't use the XP penalty rule in my campaign but then again, I don't have players who are powergaming for save bonuses (or other factors - well maybe one player is doing it a little, but not a problem so far). If it becomes an issue then I will surely assign the xp penalty back. I dont use the rules because of racial favored class rules, not because of the penalty. I like an interesting character concept that might need to be multiclassed in an interesting way - not to be penalized for creativity. But, powergaming is a different story.

 

[Tonguez]

I use Talent Trees to replace Prestige Classes In my games.

A Talent Tree can be gained either by using a Feat or through training (or both ic) and give a wider selection of abilities every 2 levels provided that prerequisites and costs are met

 

[Narsil]

I make sure that it makes sense... I can see a Wizard who's multiclassed to Shadow Adept, Loremaster, Red Wizard or even a Hathran taking levels of Archmage later on, but not quite so with an Eldritch Knight.

 

[Spatzimaus]

We've done the fractional BAB/Saves practically from the start of 3E, IMC. But as to Prestige Classes, we added one other rule:

All class changes (multiple base classes, prestige classes, etc.) must be announced to the DM 3-4 levels in advance. (Your first few levels are decided at character creation. If your character concept requires your Wizard to take Fighter levels, you should warn the DM so that he knows why you're charging into the fray so often swinging your staff.)

Besides being a deterrent to really rampant rules abuse, it gives the DM time to:
> Introduce NPCs representing the organization(s) that will train the Prestige Class.
> Evaluate the PrC for balance, and make changes with the player. The PrC isn't available for use until both DM and Player agree on it.
> Add local flavor to the PrC. Many book PrCs are not setting-specific, and so come off as a bit bland. This might involve giving a minor ability that fits the campaign, or it might just be purely aesthetic.

The exceptions to this are:
1> If some life-altering event happens in-game, this lead time can be reduced (although even with those events, we don't let anyone do it less than 2 levels in advance. That is, if you're level 10, you'd have to already know what classes you'll take at 11 and 12.)
2> If some new source material becomes available (splatbooks, something you saw on this board...), and the new material includes a PrC that fits your concept better than what you've already been using, not only does the lead time limit go away, retroactive changes can be made. ("I'm a level 5 Radiant Servant of Aeos. I've always been one. Hunter of the Dead? Never heard of it.") This one should only RARELY be invoked.

 

[airwalkrr]

The other side of the coin, although this is more work for you as a DM, is remember that your NPCs can be just as crazily-built as your PCs. Sure, the party wizard might be a wizard / initiate of the seven fold veil / incantatrix, but the BBEG they face might be a psion / thrallherd with a ranger / tempest / dervish thrall

Actually, this is the best solution. Unfortunately, I don't have time for that kind of preparation work (few DMs do). When I build NPCs, they are usually one class characters.