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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Keith Langley" data-source="post: 9764913" data-attributes="member: 6706270">2024 and ToV were worked on over the same year, and came out at the same time, both being revisions of 2014.  In many ways ToV is the more conservative rework of the two; one primary aim was to maintain compatibility with hundreds of Kobold Press books and adventures written for the 5e ruleset.  Here are the major differences I see:1) Character Creation: Stats2014 granted 3 extra stat points to each character based on their race, and Monsters of the Multiverse made those points "free choice" no matter what race you chose, decoupling them from that decision.  2024 linked those three points to background instead, undoing the MotM free choice.ToV starts with a higher stat baseline and doesn't award any extra points during character creation.  Verdict: ToV, or 2014 with the MotM revision, is better than 2024, or than 2014 without that revision.2) Character Creation: Feats/Talents: 2024 grants an Origin feat, which is defined by your background choice.  If a certain feat is key to your character concept you must take the background that grants it.  All monks are sailors now.ToV grants a choice of three Talents, based on your background choice.  Their Talent design is more balanced; there aren't must-haves and stinkers as D&D has, so usually one of those will work well with your character.With later feat acquisition: 2024 feats come with +1 to a specified stat, sometimes a choice of 2.  ToV Talents come with +1 to any stat.  Much more useful, as sometimes you want a feat that plays off your already strong stat but also want to shore up a weaker stat.Verdict: ToV allows more freedom to build the character you envision.3) Character Creation: Species/ Lineage and Heritage:  ToV is miles ahead of 2024 on this one.  Mixing and matching a lineage with a heritage, adding a class, then a background with a choice of three talents, all together gives amazing customization at level 1.Verdict: ToV can make two level 1 dwarf fighters feel and play very differently.  2024 still suffers from characters that must fit a mold if they want to be effective.4) Spell Lists: 2024, like 2014, has a spell list for every spellcasting class.  ToV has four spell lists.  Your class is an Arcane, Divine, Primordial (nature) or Wyrd (just warlocks for now, witches coming soon) caster and you have access to all of that list.  I'm undecided about this.  Giving bards fireballs feels like it reduces class identity, but giving paladins the rest of the cleric list feels amazing.Verdict: undecided5) Rituals: in 2024, as 2014, some spells can be cast as rituals, trading longer spell time for not using a spell slot.  Since these are normally not combat spells and combat is 90% of the game, they are rarely chosen.  In ToV, spellcasting classes get cantrips, (leveled) spells, and rituals chosen separately, so taking a ritual doesn't diminish your combat choices.  Ritual spells are always and only cast as rituals, and non-ritual spells never are.  This means these flavorful options get used more, which in turn can steer the game toward strategic and roleplaying use of magic rather than always tactical considerations.Verdict: a great innovation from ToV6) Luck vs Heroic Inspiration.  Enough other posters have talked about this one.Verdict: Luck is so good, and easy to import into your D&D game, that you should steal it even if you don't plan to play ToV.7) Weapon Mastery/ Weapon Options: Both design teams sought a way to jazz up martial play. ToV came closer, but neither is quite right.  2024: Only certain classes get Weapon Mastery.  Inexplicably, every day they can forget their years of spear training and suddenly acquire years of bow training, then switch back the next day.  Mastery effects are riders added to every hit with the weapon, making your attacks more powerful but not providing any new decision space.  You're still just attacking, every round, but now it does more.  "Vex" is overpowered and trivializes other abilities, because Advantage is the only tool in the box and Vex means you pretty much always have it.   ToV: Everyone can use Weapon Options.  Choosing to use one means not doing any damage that turn, so the effect must be strong.  Unfortunately, ToV felt the effect was too strong, so they added a saving throw requirement on top of needing to hit.  This meant that Weapon Options usually fail.  Aside from that, they are particularly useful if you don't expect to do much damage anyway - you're fighting wererats and your weapon isn't silver or magical, or you're usually a caster and the target has resistance to your damaging cantrip; you can still contribute with a trip, push or disarm.My solution has been to houserule away the saving throws for the ToV weapon options.Verdict: Power players will prefer 2024.  People who enjoy making meaningful decisions will prefer ToV if they apply my fix; otherwise they'll also prefer 2024.8. Minor rule changes: In ToV, anyone who can read can use any scroll, of any level, with no rolls required. GMs will want to be careful with this; if your fourth level characters get rich enough they'll be buying Time Stop scrolls if you let them.In 2024, potions are officially a bonus action.  Lots of tables were treating them that way anyway.  ToV resisted that call.Many spells were revised, more in 2024 than in ToV.Verdict: mixed.  These are easy for a GM to decide yes or no on individually.9. Classes: Way too much to pick apart here.  2024 has better barbarians and monks, nerfed paladins and did rangers no favors.  ToV has the first really good ranger ever.  The ToV Mechanist feels much more like an artificer than the D&D Artificer does.Verdict: mixedThe Future: ToV is putting out new content at a feverish pace; we already have dozens of new lineages, heritages, classes and subclasses from the Campaign Builder books, the new Margreve book, the just-released Book of Blades, the Labyrinth setting, and currently in kickstarter, the Northlands and Player's Guide 2.  While Players Guide was a rewrite of content we were already familiar with, now we're seeing more divergence between the two games.Compatibility: Yes, you CAN run D&D and ToV characters in the same party, in an adventure that you run with either ruleset or a blend of the two.  I have several tables running like this and they work just fine.</blockquote>

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