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<blockquote data-quote="Jer" data-source="post: 8569908" data-attributes="member: 19857">The thing is - what people call &quot;metagaming&quot; is much like what people call &quot;art&quot; - the definition varies from person to person.&nbsp; Some have an expansive definition, some have a narrow definition.&nbsp; But if we call use the label &quot;metagaming&quot; then we can argue all argue about it.IME when people say they don't like &quot;metagaming&quot; what they mean are variants on the following:<ol>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">They don't like it when they throw monsters at the PCs and one of the players says &quot;oh this monster has fire resistance so I'm going to put away my flamesword and break out my frostrime warhammer&quot; when there's no way that their character could know that fact.&nbsp; It could be that the player has encountered the monster before in another game, it could be that the player is also a DM and has read the MM, or it could be that the player just memorizes monster stats for fun and profit.&nbsp; This gets dubbed &quot;metagaming&quot;.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">They're talking about players who &quot;math out&quot; everything and won't take a decision that would be logical for their character to make based on stats that their character wouldn't know/be smart enough to understand. They're playing the game optimally rather than &quot;in character&quot; and that gets dubbed &quot;metagaming&quot;.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">They're talking about DMs who use tactics to screw over their players using the knowledge of how their players play that the bad guys wouldn't actually know.&nbsp; That gets dubbed &quot;metagaming&quot;.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">They are referring to the tendency of players to be aware of the tropes of the game that they're in and make decisions based on those tropes knowing that they're in a game where those tropes are active. They're acting like characters in a story instead of people in a simulated world and for DMs and players who don't like that it gets dubbed &quot;metagaming&quot; as well.</li>
</ol>I'm sure there are others - these are the most common elements I've seen over the years.You seem to me to be talking about type 4 metagaming here - and it's a very narrow group of people who get upset about it.&nbsp; Because for most games it literally is not a problem - in fact it's a benefit if the players play to the tropes of the game because another term for &quot;playing to the tropes&quot; is &quot;accepting the premise&quot; of the game.&nbsp; If I know that I'm in a game of X-Files conspiracy horror I'm going to accept that premise and play the game instead of doing what I'd do in a world simulation which is reject the premise and not go along because I'm a serious FBI agent who doesn't have time to truck with aliens and other nonsense.&nbsp; If I'm playing in a game of dungeon exploration I'm going to follow up on dungeon exploration hooks because I'm accepting the premise of the game we're playing rather than doing what I'd do in a world simulation - which is probably find a safe job somewhere that doesn't involve exploring tunnels full of monsters.&nbsp; Even in an open world sandbox game you're playing adventurers looking for adventure and pretending that the hooks aren't really hooks is basically rejecting the premise of the game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jer, post: 8569908, member: 19857"] The thing is - what people call "metagaming" is much like what people call "art" - the definition varies from person to person. Some have an expansive definition, some have a narrow definition. But if we call use the label "metagaming" then we can argue all argue about it. IME when people say they don't like "metagaming" what they mean are variants on the following: [LIST=1] [*]They don't like it when they throw monsters at the PCs and one of the players says "oh this monster has fire resistance so I'm going to put away my flamesword and break out my frostrime warhammer" when there's no way that their character could know that fact. It could be that the player has encountered the monster before in another game, it could be that the player is also a DM and has read the MM, or it could be that the player just memorizes monster stats for fun and profit. This gets dubbed "metagaming". [*]They're talking about players who "math out" everything and won't take a decision that would be logical for their character to make based on stats that their character wouldn't know/be smart enough to understand. They're playing the game optimally rather than "in character" and that gets dubbed "metagaming". [*]They're talking about DMs who use tactics to screw over their players using the knowledge of how their players play that the bad guys wouldn't actually know. That gets dubbed "metagaming". [*]They are referring to the tendency of players to be aware of the tropes of the game that they're in and make decisions based on those tropes knowing that they're in a game where those tropes are active. They're acting like characters in a story instead of people in a simulated world and for DMs and players who don't like that it gets dubbed "metagaming" as well. [/LIST] I'm sure there are others - these are the most common elements I've seen over the years. You seem to me to be talking about type 4 metagaming here - and it's a very narrow group of people who get upset about it. Because for most games it literally is not a problem - in fact it's a benefit if the players play to the tropes of the game because another term for "playing to the tropes" is "accepting the premise" of the game. If I know that I'm in a game of X-Files conspiracy horror I'm going to accept that premise and play the game instead of doing what I'd do in a world simulation which is reject the premise and not go along because I'm a serious FBI agent who doesn't have time to truck with aliens and other nonsense. If I'm playing in a game of dungeon exploration I'm going to follow up on dungeon exploration hooks because I'm accepting the premise of the game we're playing rather than doing what I'd do in a world simulation - which is probably find a safe job somewhere that doesn't involve exploring tunnels full of monsters. Even in an open world sandbox game you're playing adventurers looking for adventure and pretending that the hooks aren't really hooks is basically rejecting the premise of the game. [/QUOTE]

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