Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Out of combat balance - skills trained and known
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7474098" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Thankfully I tend to find that's not an issue in my group. That's not to say that players don't look for approaches that can draw support from their bigger numbers, but if they really <em>want</em> a certain outcome, and the only way to get that is to do a thing their PC is not too good at, then they will have their PC try that thing. (This comes up most often in relation to the low-CHA fighter with no trained social skills trying to persuade people. But occasionally it is the low-STR melee-weak invoker/wizard trying to take an opportunity attack or even a regular melee attack against someone/thing he really doesn't like.)</p><p></p><p>What I find helps with this (which I'm not meaning to imply you haven't tried at your table - I'm just setting out my own approach) is a "fail forward" style resolution of the Burning Wheel or DitV sort: if the check fails, then the PC (and player) don't get what they wanted, but I narrate an outcome in which stuff keeps happening (ie it's not just "Sorry, didn't work). So the anti-social fighter trying and failing to persuade a NPC (ie player fails a low-bonus Diplomacy check) might lead thinks down a less happy path for the party, but it doesn't stall the action at the table.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've got no problem with that. In the 4e context, I'd be pretty happy if Athletics and Acrobatics were folded together, with an option to test on STR or DEX depending on the logic of the fictional situation.</p><p></p><p>My point about thieves/rogues wanting six skills was more framed in the context of the game as it is currently presented.</p><p></p><p>I was going to make the point about higher levels and then saw that you already made it.</p><p></p><p>Here's the PC summary chart from my 30th level 4e game:</p><p></p><p>[sblock] <table style='width: 100%'><tr><td></td><td><strong>Derrik</strong></td><td><strong>Jett</strong></td><td><strong>Malstaph</strong></td><td><strong>Ravian</strong></td><td><strong>Tillen</strong></td></tr><tr><td>AC</td><td>45</td><td>46</td><td>43</td><td>47</td><td>47</td></tr><tr><td>Fort</td><td>41</td><td>42</td><td>33</td><td>39</td><td>42</td></tr><tr><td>Ref</td><td>39</td><td>43</td><td>39</td><td>45</td><td>36</td></tr><tr><td>Will</td><td>40</td><td>48</td><td>45</td><td>44</td><td>45</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>hp</td><td>224</td><td>171</td><td>139</td><td>173</td><td>222</td></tr><tr><td>Initiative</td><td>+21</td><td>+28</td><td>+21</td><td>+24</td><td>+19</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Passive Insight</td><td>29</td><td>27 (29)</td><td>44</td><td>33</td><td>37</td></tr><tr><td>Passive Perception</td><td>29 (32)</td><td>27</td><td>39</td><td>42</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>STR</td><td>26 (+23)</td><td>10 (+15)</td><td>12 (+16)</td><td>12 (+16)</td><td>14 (+17)</td></tr><tr><td>CON</td><td>20 (+20)</td><td>14 (+17)</td><td>13 (+16)</td><td>16 (+18)</td><td>18 (+19)</td></tr><tr><td>DEX</td><td>18 (+19)</td><td>26 (+23)</td><td>10 (+15)</td><td>28 (+24)</td><td>14 (+17)</td></tr><tr><td>INT</td><td>10 (+15)</td><td>12 (+16)</td><td>24 (+22)</td><td>10 (+15)</td><td>12 (+16)</td></tr><tr><td>WIS</td><td>19 (+19)</td><td>14 (+17)</td><td>28 (+24)</td><td>26 (+23)</td><td>20 (+20)</td></tr><tr><td>CHA</td><td>12 (+16)</td><td>28 (+24)</td><td>12 (+16)</td><td>15 (+17)</td><td>28 (+24)</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Athletics</td><td>+28</td><td>+15</td><td>+15</td><td>+20</td><td>+18</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Endurance</td><td>+35</td><td>+17</td><td>+15</td><td>+19</td><td>+17</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Acrobatics</td><td>+19</td><td>+28</td><td>+14</td><td>+33</td><td>+13</td></tr><tr><td>Stealth</td><td>+19</td><td>+30</td><td>+14</td><td>+23</td><td>+15</td></tr><tr><td>Thievery</td><td>+19</td><td>+23</td><td>+14</td><td>+23</td><td>+13</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Arcana</td><td>+15</td><td>+21</td><td>+43 (45)</td><td>+15</td><td>+16</td></tr><tr><td>History</td><td>+15</td><td>+16</td><td>+43</td><td>+15</td><td>+16</td></tr><tr><td>Religion</td><td>+20</td><td>+16</td><td>+41 (43)</td><td>+20</td><td>+21</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Dungeoneering</td><td>+21</td><td>+17</td><td>+35</td><td>+23</td><td>+20</td></tr><tr><td>Heal</td><td>+24</td><td>+17</td><td>+24 (26)</td><td>+23</td><td>+20</td></tr><tr><td>Insight</td><td>+19</td><td>+17 (19)</td><td>+34</td><td>+23</td><td>+27</td></tr><tr><td>Nature</td><td>+19</td><td>+17</td><td>+35 (37)</td><td>+30</td><td>+20</td></tr><tr><td>Perception</td><td>+19 (22)</td><td>+17</td><td>+29</td><td>+32</td><td>+20</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Bluff</td><td>+16</td><td>+29 (33)</td><td>+18</td><td>+17</td><td>+26</td></tr><tr><td>Diplomacy</td><td>+16</td><td>+35 (37)</td><td>+29 (33)</td><td>+22</td><td>+35</td></tr><tr><td>Intimidate</td><td>+16</td><td>+37 (41)</td><td>+20</td><td>+17</td><td>+37</td></tr><tr><td>Streetwise</td><td>+16</td><td>+24 (26)</td><td>+16</td><td>+17</td><td>+24</td></tr></table><p>]<br /> </p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>The AC gap is 4. The NAD gaps are 8 or 9. The skill gaps go into the 20s and even 30 for Arcana.</p><p></p><p>I know your system eliminates ability score increases, which is some of that gap. But it also results from the fact that (in core 4e, at least) item or inherent bonuses to AC and other defences are ubiquitous, whereas skill bonuses are much more varied. Feats are similar in this respect.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7474098, member: 42582"] Thankfully I tend to find that's not an issue in my group. That's not to say that players don't look for approaches that can draw support from their bigger numbers, but if they really [I]want[/I] a certain outcome, and the only way to get that is to do a thing their PC is not too good at, then they will have their PC try that thing. (This comes up most often in relation to the low-CHA fighter with no trained social skills trying to persuade people. But occasionally it is the low-STR melee-weak invoker/wizard trying to take an opportunity attack or even a regular melee attack against someone/thing he really doesn't like.) What I find helps with this (which I'm not meaning to imply you haven't tried at your table - I'm just setting out my own approach) is a "fail forward" style resolution of the Burning Wheel or DitV sort: if the check fails, then the PC (and player) don't get what they wanted, but I narrate an outcome in which stuff keeps happening (ie it's not just "Sorry, didn't work). So the anti-social fighter trying and failing to persuade a NPC (ie player fails a low-bonus Diplomacy check) might lead thinks down a less happy path for the party, but it doesn't stall the action at the table. I've got no problem with that. In the 4e context, I'd be pretty happy if Athletics and Acrobatics were folded together, with an option to test on STR or DEX depending on the logic of the fictional situation. My point about thieves/rogues wanting six skills was more framed in the context of the game as it is currently presented. I was going to make the point about higher levels and then saw that you already made it. Here's the PC summary chart from my 30th level 4e game: [sblock][TABLE=”width: 100%]] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][B]Derrik[/B][/TD] [TD][B]Jett[/B][/TD] [TD][B]Malstaph[/B][/TD] [TD][B]Ravian[/B][/TD] [TD][B]Tillen[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]AC[/TD] [TD]45[/TD] [TD]46[/TD] [TD]43[/TD] [TD]47[/TD] [TD]47[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Fort[/TD] [TD]41[/TD] [TD]42[/TD] [TD]33[/TD] [TD]39[/TD] [TD]42[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Ref[/TD] [TD]39[/TD] [TD]43[/TD] [TD]39[/TD] [TD]45[/TD] [TD]36[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Will[/TD] [TD]40[/TD] [TD]48[/TD] [TD]45[/TD] [TD]44[/TD] [TD]45[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]hp[/TD] [TD]224[/TD] [TD]171[/TD] [TD]139[/TD] [TD]173[/TD] [TD]222[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Initiative[/TD] [TD]+21[/TD] [TD]+28[/TD] [TD]+21[/TD] [TD]+24[/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Passive Insight[/TD] [TD]29[/TD] [TD]27 (29)[/TD] [TD]44[/TD] [TD]33[/TD] [TD]37[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Passive Perception[/TD] [TD]29 (32)[/TD] [TD]27[/TD] [TD]39[/TD] [TD]42[/TD] [TD]30[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]STR[/TD] [TD]26 (+23)[/TD] [TD]10 (+15)[/TD] [TD]12 (+16)[/TD] [TD]12 (+16)[/TD] [TD]14 (+17)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]CON[/TD] [TD]20 (+20)[/TD] [TD]14 (+17)[/TD] [TD]13 (+16)[/TD] [TD]16 (+18)[/TD] [TD]18 (+19)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]DEX[/TD] [TD]18 (+19)[/TD] [TD]26 (+23)[/TD] [TD]10 (+15)[/TD] [TD]28 (+24)[/TD] [TD]14 (+17)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]INT[/TD] [TD]10 (+15)[/TD] [TD]12 (+16)[/TD] [TD]24 (+22)[/TD] [TD]10 (+15)[/TD] [TD]12 (+16)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]WIS[/TD] [TD]19 (+19)[/TD] [TD]14 (+17)[/TD] [TD]28 (+24)[/TD] [TD]26 (+23)[/TD] [TD]20 (+20)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]CHA[/TD] [TD]12 (+16)[/TD] [TD]28 (+24)[/TD] [TD]12 (+16)[/TD] [TD]15 (+17)[/TD] [TD]28 (+24)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Athletics[/TD] [TD]+28[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [TD]+18[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Endurance[/TD] [TD]+35[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Acrobatics[/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [TD]+28[/TD] [TD]+14[/TD] [TD]+33[/TD] [TD]+13[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Stealth[/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [TD]+30[/TD] [TD]+14[/TD] [TD]+23[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Thievery[/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [TD]+23[/TD] [TD]+14[/TD] [TD]+23[/TD] [TD]+13[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Arcana[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [TD]+21[/TD] [TD]+43 (45)[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]History[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [TD]+43[/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Religion[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [TD]+41 (43)[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [TD]+21[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Dungeoneering[/TD] [TD]+21[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+35[/TD] [TD]+23[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Heal[/TD] [TD]+24[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+24 (26)[/TD] [TD]+23[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Insight[/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [TD]+17 (19)[/TD] [TD]+34[/TD] [TD]+23[/TD] [TD]+27[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Nature[/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+35 (37)[/TD] [TD]+30[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Perception[/TD] [TD]+19 (22)[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+29[/TD] [TD]+32[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Bluff[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [TD]+29 (33)[/TD] [TD]+18[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+26[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Diplomacy[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [TD]+35 (37)[/TD] [TD]+29 (33)[/TD] [TD]+22[/TD] [TD]+35[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Intimidate[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [TD]+37 (41)[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+37[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Streetwise[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [TD]+24 (26)[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [TD]+24[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE][/sblock] The AC gap is 4. The NAD gaps are 8 or 9. The skill gaps go into the 20s and even 30 for Arcana. I know your system eliminates ability score increases, which is some of that gap. But it also results from the fact that (in core 4e, at least) item or inherent bonuses to AC and other defences are ubiquitous, whereas skill bonuses are much more varied. Feats are similar in this respect. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Out of combat balance - skills trained and known
Top