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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 6331262" data-attributes="member: 58197">"Somewhat" is putting it mildly.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">He measures wizard and cleric utility at 20th level only. This is ridiculous. Very few groups play at 20th level or anything close to it. Typically, you're going to be in the level 5-10 range, which means you don't have 25 prepared spells, you have 9-15.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">He assumes that the wizard and cleric devote their entire list of prepared spells to utility magic, and none at all to combat. This is not even close to accurate. In my experience, a wizard's prepared spell list is typically 30-50% combat spells. Mage armor, magic missile, and fireball are the Indispensable Trio; personal survival, targeted damage, and blast damage. Then you're going to want one or two save-or-suck spells, a bit of battlefield control... it adds up fast. So, now you're looking at 4-10 utility spells.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">He drastically undervalues the impact of limited spell slots, which bite far harder in 5E than they ever did in 3E. I played a wizard in the public playtest, and believe me, I hoarded those spell slots. Using a 3rd-level spell slot for comprehend languages? Don't be absurd. No wizard would ever do that except in the most dire circumstances. 3rd-level slots are far too precious to be squandered that way. You may think it's the last encounter of the day, but you can't know that for sure. The DM is a tricksy beast.</li> </ul>So, adjusting the numbers for the wizard... 4-10 utility spells is an average of 7. I think limited spell slots balances out the greater utility of wizard spells over skills, so cut that 6 points to 4. What's the wizard's "utility value" now? 51, pretty close to the rogue.Of course, all this really proves is that you can manipulate these numbers to say any-darned-thing you please. Until I see a rogue and a wizard side by side at the table (my playtest party didn't have any rogues), I don't think I can judge their relative utility. I don't think anyone else can, either. In theory, the goal is for the rogue to be the go-to skills expert, while the wizard reluctantly taps her limited store of magic to deal with problems outside the rogue's expertise. We'll have to see how it goes in practice.Where I do agree is that Basic fighters have very limited options out of combat. They don't have no options, just limited ones. That is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a place for a class whose raison d'etre is "Killing stuff." Many players are just in it for blood and glory, and aren't much interested in the other two pillars. That does mean the fighter needs to be better at combat than everybody else; not three times better (it doesn't work that way!), but significantly better. Again, we'll have to see how this plays out at the table, but on paper, at least, the fighter looks like a very nasty customer. Lots of hit points, excellent AC, and fearsome damage output.When the PHB comes out, we'll have a better idea what options are available for fighters who want more versatility.</blockquote>

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