D&D 3E/3.5 Outsider V. Outsider (or, 3.5 DR)

[the Jester]

So the last session in my nigh-epic campaign had, among many other combatants, a balor and a solar. The two naturally gravitated towards each other as primary targets, and- due to the 3.5 DR system- could barely hurt each other!

I was of two minds about the new DR system til the aforementioned game. The balor was tough. The party chipped away at him, but it wasn't until the Large warrior of chaos got a crit on the demon that they really seemed to get the upper hand, even with the solar. He showed them that CR 20 is no pushover. Damn! It was great!

The two outsiders smashing away at each other, barely effectual at all, was great. That's why Heaven and Hell will fight forever!

I'm now officially a whole-hearted convert to the 3.5 DR rules. Yes, it's harder to bypass DR; only a couple of characters managed to bypass the DR on anything in that game (vampires, crawling head, balor...), but everyone managed to push through the DR and deal damage. All in all, a fantastic game that highlighted how cool the new rules are in practice.

 

[Endur]

Note that both the Solar and the Balor have the power attack feat so they can penetrate other creature's DR.

So the last session in my nigh-epic campaign had, among many other combatants, a balor and a solar. The two naturally gravitated towards each other as primary targets, and- due to the 3.5 DR system- could barely hurt each other!

 

[Grazzt]

Note that both the Solar and the Balor have the power attack feat so they can penetrate other creature's DR.

What praytell does Power Attack have to do with penetrating/bypassing DR?

 

[Darrin Drader]

What praytell does Power Attack have to do with penetrating/bypassing DR?

Nothing. Nada. Zip. On the other hand (and no, I'm not looking this up right now), if they both have the same type of damage reduction, then they can bypass each other's DR. This way vampires can hurt other vampires, werecreatures can hurt one another, etc.

 

[gfunk]

Nothing. Nada. Zip. On the other hand (and no, I'm not looking this up right now), if they both have the same type of damage reduction, then they can bypass each other's DR. This way vampired can hurt other vampires, werecreatures can hurt one another, etc.

IIRC, this is not exactly correct. Materials-based DR (silver, adamantine, cold iron) does not allow the possessor to penetrate similar DR. So a were-creature cannot penetrate the silver-DR of another were-creature.

However, creatures with alignment-based DR as well as magic or epic, bestow the same property upon their weapons.

So a Solar's weapons are treated as Good and Epic.
A Balor's weapons are treated as Evil.

Neither can penetrate the other's DR, though the Solar could easily do so by wishing for a cold-iron weapon.

 

[Carnifex]

What praytell does Power Attack have to do with penetrating/bypassing DR?

I think he means that, especially considering both balors and solars have fairly hefty attack rolls, they can viably use power attack to help overcome the damage reduction of the other as they have attack bonus to spare.

 

[Mista Collins]

It makes sense how Power Attack helps in overcoming/penetrating DR. If I take enough off my attack, I am doing enough damage to ignore the 15 points. Well not really ignore, but I am doing greater damage than 15. Makes sense to me.

 

[the Jester]

Power Attack was the main method they used to deal damage, but they had a hard time hitting each other by the time all the defenses in play were accounted for. As for wishing for cold iron, not a bad idea- didn't think of it at the time, though. Hm, put it on her tactics list for next time...

 

[Endur]

Mr. Balor meet Mr. Solar

Mr. Balor weighs in with 290 hit points and is armed with a +1 vorpal long sword that he will wield in two hands. He has pre-cast unholy aura and has an AC of 39 and a SR 28. DR 15/cold iron and good.
attacks: +31/+26/+21/+16
damage: 2d6 +14/19-20; vorpal on 20

Mr. Solar weighs in with 209 hit points and is armed with a +5 dancing greatsword that he will wield in two hands. The Solar, without any pre-cast spells, has an AC of 39 and a SR of 32. DR 15/epic and evil. Regeneration 15.
attacks: +35/+30/+25/+20
damage: 3d6 +18/19-20

The Balor should do 2d6-1 on each hit. 24/20 chance of hitting each round. 2d6 - 1 damage (after DR) *24/20 = 7 points of damage per round. Unless the Balor's sword is treated as epic, the Solar should regenerate damage as fast as it is injured by a Balor.

The Solar (assuming his sword is not cold iron) should do 3d6 +3 on each hit. 38/20 chance of hitting each round or about 27 points of damage each round.

The Vorpal weapon looks like the only chance the Balor has of winning this fight, except that one of the Solar's spells is Death Ward, which probably blocks the vorpal weapon ability.

On the other hand, the Solar's Dancing Weapon allows the Solar to also cast spells while fighting or to shoot at the Balor with the Solar's slaying arrows.

This fight, not counting interference from the PCs or a lucky strike from the Balor with a Vorpal Sword while the Solar isn't protected by Death Ward, should definitely end in a win for the Solar in 10 or so rounds.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The solar is supposed to be tougher, however. 3 CR points, probably has a much higher ECL, too.