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<blockquote data-quote="Kalendraf" data-source="post: 1576202" data-attributes="member: 3433">This is exactly why 10 min/lvl is too long for these spells.&nbsp; When given the choice of the buff spells with a duration of 10 min/level or longer vs. other 2nd level spells, players will opt for a full set of buff spells and little or nothing else in their 2nd level spell slots.&nbsp; When the duration is reduced to 1 min/level, they actually start memorizing other spells as options.My groups still use the 3.5 version of the buff spells, but I typically only see 1 or 2 on any given list of spells per character.&nbsp; IMHO, that's the way they should be used.&nbsp; Players just need to get over the broken mentality of certain 3e spell versions and move on.&nbsp; Try out the buff spells with 1 min/level and most find they are still good, but they aren't the braindead choices they used to be like this:DM: You find that the stone slab moves to reveal stairs leading down.Cleric: I cast bull's strength on all fighters, endurance on everyone.&nbsp; Gee, I guess I'm out of 2nd level spells...again&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp; Oh, I guess I'll cast light on my mace.Wizard: I cast cat's grace on myself, the rogue and the fighter, and then cast owl's wisdom on myself, and the cleric.&nbsp; Then I put up my mage armor.&nbsp; Hah, I'm out of 2nd level spells again too.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kalendraf, post: 1576202, member: 3433"] This is exactly why 10 min/lvl is too long for these spells. When given the choice of the buff spells with a duration of 10 min/level or longer vs. other 2nd level spells, players will opt for a full set of buff spells and little or nothing else in their 2nd level spell slots. When the duration is reduced to 1 min/level, they actually start memorizing other spells as options. My groups still use the 3.5 version of the buff spells, but I typically only see 1 or 2 on any given list of spells per character. IMHO, that's the way they should be used. Players just need to get over the broken mentality of certain 3e spell versions and move on. Try out the buff spells with 1 min/level and most find they are still good, but they aren't the braindead choices they used to be like this: DM: You find that the stone slab moves to reveal stairs leading down. Cleric: I cast bull's strength on all fighters, endurance on everyone. Gee, I guess I'm out of 2nd level spells...again ;) Oh, I guess I'll cast light on my mace. Wizard: I cast cat's grace on myself, the rogue and the fighter, and then cast owl's wisdom on myself, and the cleric. Then I put up my mage armor. Hah, I'm out of 2nd level spells again too. ;) [/QUOTE]

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