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<blockquote data-quote="isoChron" data-source="post: 1579857" data-attributes="member: 5927">First of all we don't have/use Savage Species or the region specific books. Nor any online or dragon magazine stuff.&nbsp;&nbsp;No dehydration, no force orb, no the sky is falling.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You say you can cancel invisibility-effects with a sack of flour, but where do you throw it (and how far/high) ??? Spot DC's are so extremly high (not mentioned the range increment of such checks...) that there is a very small chance anyone but the rogue will see it.&nbsp;And blur is just for the case you are made visible. No sneak attack because of concealment. But you can eliminate blur. It's not important.&nbsp;&nbsp;Potions of See Invisibility don't exist. Range PERSONAL spells are not allowed as potions.&nbsp;We don't use the draconomicon, so no potion of dragonsight (whatever it does).&nbsp;Who can use a wand of Glitterdust except perhaps the rogue ? Remember, no magic users.&nbsp;Blindsight has a range of 30 ft... not that difficult to stay higher than 30 ft.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The point is that you have to be targetable for many damage spells. You can just pinpoint a location with spot checks/listen checks. That's enough to get the right square (if you are extremly good) but you still don't have a target ! No Horrid Wilting, no magic missile, .... beyond that: we still don't want a magic user in the opposite party.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Scent takes a lot of time to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature and you have to be next to it (5ft). Not very easy for a wolf to keep up with a wizard flying 50 ft. above ground. He won't even smell the wizard, since he is more than 30ft apart.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So it boils down to have glitterdust (10ft radius spread at medium range) or see invisibility/invisibility purge (max 100ft at 20th level) available. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have seen what a single wizard level 11 can do to a party of 7 (!) characters level 15 (clr, wiz, wiz/rog, rog, pal/ftr/rgr, rog/asn, drd) in open range. We all died before we got a real chance to act. Not even our horses survived. And all that was done with PHB spells. Luckily our DM declared this event as a very vivid vision/daydream and we continued adventuring...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="isoChron, post: 1579857, member: 5927"] First of all we don't have/use Savage Species or the region specific books. Nor any online or dragon magazine stuff. No dehydration, no force orb, no the sky is falling. You say you can cancel invisibility-effects with a sack of flour, but where do you throw it (and how far/high) ??? Spot DC's are so extremly high (not mentioned the range increment of such checks...) that there is a very small chance anyone but the rogue will see it. And blur is just for the case you are made visible. No sneak attack because of concealment. But you can eliminate blur. It's not important. Potions of See Invisibility don't exist. Range PERSONAL spells are not allowed as potions. We don't use the draconomicon, so no potion of dragonsight (whatever it does). Who can use a wand of Glitterdust except perhaps the rogue ? Remember, no magic users. Blindsight has a range of 30 ft... not that difficult to stay higher than 30 ft. The point is that you have to be targetable for many damage spells. You can just pinpoint a location with spot checks/listen checks. That's enough to get the right square (if you are extremly good) but you still don't have a target ! No Horrid Wilting, no magic missile, .... beyond that: we still don't want a magic user in the opposite party. Scent takes a lot of time to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature and you have to be next to it (5ft). Not very easy for a wolf to keep up with a wizard flying 50 ft. above ground. He won't even smell the wizard, since he is more than 30ft apart. So it boils down to have glitterdust (10ft radius spread at medium range) or see invisibility/invisibility purge (max 100ft at 20th level) available. I have seen what a single wizard level 11 can do to a party of 7 (!) characters level 15 (clr, wiz, wiz/rog, rog, pal/ftr/rgr, rog/asn, drd) in open range. We all died before we got a real chance to act. Not even our horses survived. And all that was done with PHB spells. Luckily our DM declared this event as a very vivid vision/daydream and we continued adventuring... [/QUOTE]

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