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<blockquote data-quote="Jay Verkuilen" data-source="post: 7757760" data-attributes="member: 6873517">I was implicitly thinking of the players or performers as part of the audience, too. I've played a lot of jazz and most of the time the audience and the performers are one, just as in an RPG session. In jazz (or improv... I don't know, never done that), you're usually playing off a chart so there's a basic script and structure of &quot;play the head in, play solos, play the head out&quot; but there's a lot of freedom and spontaneity in that structure. Yeah, that's a good point. True, though I tend to think that way as DM anyway, and have for a long time... they're running low on hit points and spells, yep, it's time for a break. Oh absolutely not, there are many other ways. Indeed, good DMs did it many years ago without formal rules. What I've liked about Conan is that the rules back up running things in a narratively oriented way, so I don't feel like I'm fighting with it. Ah, well at the micro level I don't think pace management is railroading, but I suppose it would depend on the circumstances. If it was a video game and I'd be pissed I'm stuck in this same cut scene over and over, sure, it would be.&nbsp; IMO this is the biggest weakness in 5E's design. It creates pointless inter-party and often inter-player tension, especially if you have a PC that's much more of a &quot;long rester&quot; in with &quot;short resters&quot; or vice versa. Sure, 5E has all this legacy &quot;backwards compatibility&quot; that newer games don't need. Things like the short rest vs long rest tension are examples of how newer more narrative modes are a bit at loggerheads with older more wargame-y styles. 4E explored a lot of newer mechanics and was, in this sense, innovative, whereas 5E rolled back but only kept some of the innovations. Alas they lost some that I would have liked them to keep, such as using a PC resource as the most notable healing resource. I don't want to restart a heavy 4E discussion, though---those aren't going anywhere!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jay Verkuilen, post: 7757760, member: 6873517"] I was implicitly thinking of the players or performers as part of the audience, too. I've played a lot of jazz and most of the time the audience and the performers are one, just as in an RPG session. In jazz (or improv... I don't know, never done that), you're usually playing off a chart so there's a basic script and structure of "play the head in, play solos, play the head out" but there's a lot of freedom and spontaneity in that structure. Yeah, that's a good point. True, though I tend to think that way as DM anyway, and have for a long time... they're running low on hit points and spells, yep, it's time for a break. Oh absolutely not, there are many other ways. Indeed, good DMs did it many years ago without formal rules. What I've liked about Conan is that the rules back up running things in a narratively oriented way, so I don't feel like I'm fighting with it. Ah, well at the micro level I don't think pace management is railroading, but I suppose it would depend on the circumstances. If it was a video game and I'd be pissed I'm stuck in this same cut scene over and over, sure, it would be. IMO this is the biggest weakness in 5E's design. It creates pointless inter-party and often inter-player tension, especially if you have a PC that's much more of a "long rester" in with "short resters" or vice versa. Sure, 5E has all this legacy "backwards compatibility" that newer games don't need. Things like the short rest vs long rest tension are examples of how newer more narrative modes are a bit at loggerheads with older more wargame-y styles. 4E explored a lot of newer mechanics and was, in this sense, innovative, whereas 5E rolled back but only kept some of the innovations. Alas they lost some that I would have liked them to keep, such as using a PC resource as the most notable healing resource. I don't want to restart a heavy 4E discussion, though---those aren't going anywhere! [/QUOTE]

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