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Message: <blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 7737406" data-attributes="member: 6704184">Man, there’s so much I disagree with here it’s hard to know where to even start. Martials get plenty of payoff, in 5e. PF improves on 3.5, but not enough in that regard. In 5e, fighters and rogues kill enemies much more quickly than almost any caster. Barbarians are right there with them, while being much harder to kill than anyone else. By the time you can throw Finger of Death around, the martials can gank big tough monsters *at will*, and are less likely to get knocked down in the process. While the wizard can lay down big control effects, damn near none of them can be mainained with concentration, and none of them *kill the biggest threat in the room*, which is what the rogue is doing while the wizard sweeps up *trash mobs* with a blizzard or whatever. Seriously, man, 5e runs very different from what you’re saying, and the frog adds still love it. PF can move further in that direction, too. Without saying, “wizards get no skills”. Now, fighters and barbarians should also get more skills in 5e/skill points in PF. Absolutely. But no, I’m not willing to support making caster suck at even the skills they are trained in. 0% chance. Maybe fighters and barbarians should also get an expertise, from a shorter list than rogues, I’d be fine with that. But for the wizard to outshine the rogue out of combat...know what, no, that just flat out isn’t a thing. Even spending a bunch of spells, the wizard simply can not bypass traps like a rogue, survive traps like a rogue, get help from the king like a rogue (charm spells make enemies), nor do whatever the rogue is specialized in (subclass stuff) as well as the rogue. The wizard can force open doors while alerting everyone in a mile to the sound, fly with concentration and thus the risk of falling to death, jump pretty well for a turn, or run really fast for a minute or whatever. At the cost of a spell. It doesn’t take 6-8 encounters to make it a bad idea to burn those slots regularly, or to prepare all those spells every day.</blockquote>

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