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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shemeska" data-source="post: 1578121" data-attributes="member: 11697">Trust me, I'm a Yugoloth...I figured I should finally comment on this topic...The sudden and inexplicable retroactive changes to the 3e FR cosmology blow. It's a seminal discussion over on the WotC FR boards on just how and how much they do indeed blow. The logical inconsistancies they bring up appear to have been things not even taken into consideration. While I can certainly agree with SKR's want to fix what he saw as a problem with FR being part of the Great Wheel, I can't in any way agree with it.I originally posted this over on WotC, and I'll post it here as well: "Of course 3e FR has in theory negated all of these [past persons, places and] things from existance... It's like getting all your toys from every past Xmas taken by your mean old uncle, put in a box and torched in front of your very eyes and then being given his present to you for that year. A present that he says makes everything he just sent up in flames meaningless because of the glory of his new Xmas present for you. You jiggle the box, you try to guess what's in there, and then you open it to find a pen and pencil set and some clothes that aren't your color or style."Not to imply that SKR is my mean old uncle. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'm biased in this of course since I'm one of the folks working on the <a href="http://www.planewalker.com" target="_blank">Planewalker</a> 3e conversion to Planescape. Heck, you can't even call me a cranky old timer with too much nostalgia since I never started playing DnD till 3e had been on the shelves for a month already. Then I discovered 2e Planescape and stood there with my mouth open and asking myself why the 3e material utterly lacked a soul and the level of creativity and novelty that I saw in the older PS material. The best 3e books have been those that piggybacked off of, or used nearly word for word the planar material from Planescape.Sure the Great Wheel cosmology has its own issues and unexplained things that generally can be glossed over. But the detail it recieved in Planescape simply has not been replicated in the least fraction by the newer material, 3e FR especially. As it is 3e FR has thankfully been creeping back towards reintegration with the Great Wheel cosmology (thank you Rich Baker, you have earned cutter status) Namely by a portal to Sigil in FR, and the Infinite Staircase. Both of those being the same one for FR and the Great Wheel. One degree of seperation. Pray to whatever powers that be that any 4e returns wholly to a common multiverse (with the exception of worlds designed from the start intentionally to have their own cosmology, such as Ebberon. Though there's a lively thread on the Planewalker forums about how to potentially integrate that world with a Planescape campaign).And btw, the changes at the end of Die Vecna Die don't correspond to the cosmology changes in 3e core. 3e made the Astral overlap the former role of the Ethereal, made the Ethereal essentially meaningless, removed the para and quasielemental planes, removed dreamscapes as part of the near ethereal/deep ethereal border, etc. Die Vecna Die describes Outer Planes drifting off and vanishing, some colliding and merging, and an Inner Plane 'running aground' on the Prime material. Doesn't really describe the 3e changes, even if that was the original intent.</blockquote>

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