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General Tabletop Discussion
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Paladin Actions - Appropriate?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mouseferatu" data-source="post: 3670252" data-attributes="member: 1288"><p>Uh... "Truce" means "There's to be no violence unless the other side initiates it first." It does <em>not</em> include exceptions, unless those are spelled out in advance. The fact that the erinyes is a fiend means the paladin has to be careful, and has to watch out for <em>charms</em> and <em>telepathy</em>, but it is not, in and of itself, justification for breaking the truce. At worst, it means the paladin strongly suggests to the general that they depart and renegotiate the terms of the truce.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Is the sword actually intelligent? Did it actually act on its own, <em>forcing</em> the paladin to use it against his will?</p><p></p><p>If not, then yes, it's deceptive. Being honest doesn't mean making up a story that could be true. It means <em>telling the truth</em>. Obfuscating and lying and using the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law is what devils (and lawyers) do. It's beneath a paladin, and it doesn't qualify as "truthful" <em>at all</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's an assumption. The paladin cannot <em>know</em> it's true. And even if he does, once he agrees, the paladin is bound by the truce until/unless the other side breaks it; <em>suspicion</em> of breaking it is not sufficient.</p><p></p><p>This is actually spelled out in, among other sources, <em>the Book of Exalted Deeds</em>. Paladins and exalted characters must keep the greater good in mind, but they cannot perform evil acts to serve the greater good; those acts are still evil, and they're still forbidden.</p><p></p><p>Violating an agreed-upon truce, or violating an agreement purely because the other party is evil, is specifically <em>forbidden</em> by one of the examples in that book.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If that was the case, obviously it changes things. But that wasn't mentioned in the example. And even if it were, the mere presence of the fiend isn't enough to qualify as a threat to negotiations; he'd have to know that she was actively attempting to influence the general. Otherwise, there's no <em>functional</em> difference between the advisor being a fiend or being an evil wizard with access to <em>detect thoughts</em> and <em>charm person</em>. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Offering to "lay on hands" is a clear implication of healing. You're once again falling back on a "letter vs. spirit" argument that is completely inappropriate for a paladin. That's the sort of logic and argument that devils use, not paragons of <em>honesty</em>. A half-truth, or a lie of omission, is still dishonest. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, lies by omission and implication are still dishonest. The rule is that a paladin must be <em>honest and honorable</em>.</p><p></p><p>Frankly, playing a paladin like a trial lawyer, looking for loopholes and exceptions, is missing the entire point of the class as written. There are plenty of other classes that don't adhere to the code, that can be good <em>and</em> deceptive. The paladin is not one of them. If a player doesn't want to play a stand-up, chivalrous, <em>honest</em> hero, the solution is for them to pick a different class, not to try to find exceptions to the paladin's code.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mouseferatu, post: 3670252, member: 1288"] Uh... "Truce" means "There's to be no violence unless the other side initiates it first." It does [i]not[/i] include exceptions, unless those are spelled out in advance. The fact that the erinyes is a fiend means the paladin has to be careful, and has to watch out for [i]charms[/i] and [i]telepathy[/i], but it is not, in and of itself, justification for breaking the truce. At worst, it means the paladin strongly suggests to the general that they depart and renegotiate the terms of the truce. Is the sword actually intelligent? Did it actually act on its own, [i]forcing[/i] the paladin to use it against his will? If not, then yes, it's deceptive. Being honest doesn't mean making up a story that could be true. It means [i]telling the truth[/i]. Obfuscating and lying and using the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law is what devils (and lawyers) do. It's beneath a paladin, and it doesn't qualify as "truthful" [i]at all[/i]. That's an assumption. The paladin cannot [i]know[/i] it's true. And even if he does, once he agrees, the paladin is bound by the truce until/unless the other side breaks it; [i]suspicion[/i] of breaking it is not sufficient. This is actually spelled out in, among other sources, [i]the Book of Exalted Deeds[/i]. Paladins and exalted characters must keep the greater good in mind, but they cannot perform evil acts to serve the greater good; those acts are still evil, and they're still forbidden. Violating an agreed-upon truce, or violating an agreement purely because the other party is evil, is specifically [i]forbidden[/i] by one of the examples in that book. If that was the case, obviously it changes things. But that wasn't mentioned in the example. And even if it were, the mere presence of the fiend isn't enough to qualify as a threat to negotiations; he'd have to know that she was actively attempting to influence the general. Otherwise, there's no [i]functional[/i] difference between the advisor being a fiend or being an evil wizard with access to [i]detect thoughts[/i] and [i]charm person[/i]. Offering to "lay on hands" is a clear implication of healing. You're once again falling back on a "letter vs. spirit" argument that is completely inappropriate for a paladin. That's the sort of logic and argument that devils use, not paragons of [i]honesty[/i]. A half-truth, or a lie of omission, is still dishonest. Again, lies by omission and implication are still dishonest. The rule is that a paladin must be [I]honest and honorable[/I]. Frankly, playing a paladin like a trial lawyer, looking for loopholes and exceptions, is missing the entire point of the class as written. There are plenty of other classes that don't adhere to the code, that can be good [i]and[/i] deceptive. The paladin is not one of them. If a player doesn't want to play a stand-up, chivalrous, [i]honest[/i] hero, the solution is for them to pick a different class, not to try to find exceptions to the paladin's code. [/QUOTE]
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