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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rystil Arden" data-source="post: 3682056" data-attributes="member: 29014">No, not really.  Though I am greatly interested by your analysis of the situation and its repercussions for your game, it is only screwing over Paladins in your game, but not mine, and it seems not Hyp's and several others.  I think for some of these situations, it isn't the person that is coming up with the situation who is screwing the Paladin (after all, in my game, there are palatable options to the dinner date scenario like going to dinner) but rather it is you who are screwing the Paladin in that situation by virtue of an extremely draconian interpretation of 'associate' and 'grossly violate' (Based on the definitions of associate I posted from the dictionary, I think it would be very hard to say the dinner date grossly violates that clause, hard enough to claim it violates at all without choosing a low priority definition).  Though I do agree with you that the seemingly most human choice in the Percival situation, to keep the family together, is definitely a falling offense.Meh, I disagree.  Though BoED logic does tell you that using Evil means to prevent Evil is a good way to fall, it wasn't selfishness that made Anyiel fall.  It was her extreme Lawful feeling of duty to protect the nexuses.  (Some of this is not expressly spelled out, but it was my intention<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> She initially lost her angelic powers for using extreme means to protect the nexuses, and then she stuck around as a Lawful Neutral fallen angel doing her best until she was fighting a battle she couldn't win, at which point the powers of Hell offered her a return to power on the spot and a guarantee that she would keep her old task of guarding the nexuses with no extra random evil soul temptations or the like added to her job requirements.  Hell couldn't let those Lawful nexuses fall any more than Celestia could, after all.  She only accepted their offer rather than the alternative of letting the demons win.  It was a sacrifice she made, and in some ways selfless, but still an Evil choice that damned her.  Okay, so what's my point?  I don't understand these assertions.Why?  She finds Percival to be a kindred spirit and is, while somewhat jealous, also strongly attracted to him and what he stands for.  They both hate demons and (as long as she's guiding his steps) they both guard the nexuses to prevent demonic plots.  Also, she feels really good because someone Lawful Good loves her again, and she lost that when she fell--it's the one thing missing that the Devils could not replace, so now she takes great comfort in having it again.  She cherishes that, and she is willing to bend a bit in order to keep it.  It isn't just lust where she finds him attractive and wants to repeatedly mate.  Why not?  Her main job, the sole purpose of her existence to which she sacrificed everything she had, including her immortal soul, is to guard those nexuses.  And her dark masters in Hell have tasked her to guard those nexuses, with no requirement for soul reaping or the like.  Her purpose for living with the Paladin is guarding the nexuses and killing the demons, stopping the demonic threats.  Why should she corrupt him towards Evil?  His holy powers are better against demons than Blackguard powers would be, plus if she makes him fall, she loses one of the main things that attracts her in the first place, the love of a pure champion of good, though if he does lose his powers over the deal in the story, she knows these guys... <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" />She didn't find a middle ground because she didn't have to in order to maintain the status quo.  Things happen when a catalyst pushes towards them.  Maybe if Percival tries really hard, he could redeem Anyiel.  Who knows?  Very unlikely, but possible.  I could add that option where he accepts a loss to his Paladin powers in order to stay with her and convert her to good, then getting an Atonement if he can succeed.But I get your point that it is at least unlikely to help Anyiel.  What I don't understand is why you're so mean to poor Erin.  Templates are an interesting thing because they can't give an 'Always' 'Sometimes' alignment so they list a change, but actual half-fiends we know about have always been in the 'Usually X Evil' category (For instance, Alu Fiends, the daughters of succubi, had a respectable chance of being Chaotic Neutral in the Planar Compendium Appendix 1, and Cambions were sometims not evil as well).  And in any case, Erin may very well already not be evil.  She might be Lawful Good.  She'll still detect as Moderate Evil due to being an Outsider with that subtype though.  Happens to redeemed fiends all the time.</blockquote>

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