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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Souljourner" data-source="post: 1589156" data-attributes="member: 1622">Immune to fear - whatever.  On average, I'd say I have to make a save vs. fear about once or twice per campaign.Immune to disease - even more whatever.  Diseases almost never have immediate effects, so all you need is for your cleric to prepare Remove Disease tomorrow and you're fine.  Added to that is the fact that they really aren't that common, *and* they're fort based, which all fighter classes have in spades.Now as for lay on hands and divine grace... these are both a curse and a blessing.  Either you're playing point buy, and you have to waste points on a decent charisma, where the fighter dumps his 8, or you're actually rolling, and you need to be way above the bell curve to have a playable character.Let's look at 28 point buy (standard power level).  Fighter is easy - 16 13 14 13 10 8.  16 Strength, 14 Con, 13 dex and int (for feats), 10 wisdom, 8 charisma.  Mush them around a bit, and you can customize a little bit.  Now the paladin - 15 12 14 8 12 14 15 strength (had 2 extra points), 12 dex (full plate), 14 con, 8 int (could be 10 if str is 14), 12 wis (could be 14 if str is 14), 14 Charisma.14 charisma.  It's really difficult to get higher than that with point buy and not screw the rest of your stats that you *need* for fighting and spellcasting.  14.  Not 18, not 16, - 14.  That's a mere 2 hitpoints per level for lay on hands, and a mere +2 to your saves from divine grace.  And that's with lower strength, dex, and intelligence than the fighter.  This paladin doesn't qualify for any of the dodge based feats or the expertise based feats, and only gets one skillpoint per level (2 if human).2 hitpoints per level is practically negligible.  This paladin gets 7.5 hitpoints per level on average... so lay on hands is only about 1/4 his total hitpoints.At high levels, the paladin gets better, because he can afford to pay 36,000gp for a cloak of charisma +6, which gives him +3 to all his saves and 3 extra hitpoints per level with lay on hands.  But you can't afford that until well above 10th level (unless you don't want any other magic items).Paladins are a lot like bards... they get several minor abilities that are cool, but not overly powerful, and they get awesome roleplaying opportunities.  Don't get me wrong, I like both classes, but I think paladins could use a little boost.  Sure, they are great for munchkins, because they take advantage of many stats... but in a realistic campaign, relying on multiple stats is a hindrance in combat, not a benefit.[edit] The ability to use wands and scrolls is only really a benefit if you don't have a cleric or druid in the party... and if you don't, you're going to have difficulty regardless.  Mounts don't make the paladin any faster than anyone else.  Only rarely are fights on open ground where mounts could be a factor in a battle.  Ask the druid in my party... he has a *medium sized* wolf as a companion, and there are plenty of times when even he can't get to the fight.You have to look at a paladin, not in the scope of one on one fights, but in the scope of where he'll be 90% of the time in D&D - in a party of other adventurers going on adventures.-The Souljourner</blockquote>

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