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Message: <blockquote data-quote="reapersaurus" data-source="post: 1595844" data-attributes="member: 1194">Dude, I literally don't know where to START.There's at least 30 minutes of typing material that you've given us to blow your "theory" out of the water.I don't have that much time, or interest in proving what anyone could find out from just re-reading what's already been typed. You keep saying that the paladin is the best MELEE class.You are obviously not taking into account what MELEE means.But really, I can save us all a lot of typing by just pointing out why your opinions on paladins are invalid to the general D&D campaign:1) You are coming from a campaign where "A Paladin fights evil creatures 90% of the time in a dungeon as does a fighter."It is the rarity (IME) where people play in a 90% Evil campaign.2) Your campaign uses inflated stats.This is not the normal playing field in D&D, so it invalidates your experiences with paladins to the average player.psst!Immunity to Fear, Will Saves, and Downtime healing aren't examples of somthing that makes a class a better combat class.Just so you know.Also - did you know that fighters can BUY the same kind of mounts paladins can? Fighters will have more skill points for Ride, and can actually gain enough feats to afford the mounted feats too. Hell, they could use LEadership and get a more powerful cohort than a Paladin mount. Or they could simply buy something that lets them fly.Also - you keep ignoring the FACT that fighters will have substantially better combat attributes than a paladin. Why do you keep ignoring this?BTW: DEX is used for LOTS more than just DEX saves. (the Ride skill, for one. AC, for another)BTW: STR is used for to hit, and damage. How does the paladin make up for these being lower than the fighter, even before the fighter's feats come in?Also - the Paladin's spells DO suck.You mentioned 3 of them. Restoration, Resist Energy and Death Ward.I'm sure you know that Rest and Ward are both 4th level spells, which mean they are useless to a paladin until 15th level (unless he sunk even MORE points and/or $$ into WIS). And a paladin up through 18th level only gets ONE 4th level spell a day!Resist Energy only protects him from a whopping 10 points of damage from one energy type through level 13.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> Are you really relying on scrolls (used mostly out of combat) to justify saying the Paladin's spells make him better in MELEE than a fighter? (!)If so, I can just as reasonably say that a fighter can get magic items that allow him to cast those same spells, for only twice the cost of the scroll.So are you going to actually address the points which show your approach to be flawed (and based on a non-standard D&D campaign), or will you just bring up more easily-refuted examples?Since you keep bringing up high-level dragons and the like as a backdrop for your paladin's 'power'.... I'll make the guess that you are in your mind comparing high-level (20th level) paladins to 20th level fighters (since you seem to be assuming multiple 4th level spells per day for your paladin).If so, I'll point out the elephant in the room we've been ignoring - not many people play straight fighters all the way thru 20th level.They multiclass, which makes them much more flexible and powerful than a straight paladin.This is truly one of the main weaknesses of the paladin that we haven't even bothered to point out yet:That they are hideously dependant on staying straight class. They don't multiclass for <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. There STILL is not a remotely-useful paladin PrC by the core rules.It's not my fault that the system doesn't penalize multiclassing.The simple fact of the matter is that a multiclassed fighter/cleric blows the doors off a straight paladin, even without invloving a PrC to make the comparison a joke.Remember - it's YOUR restriction to play a straight paladin.By core rules D&D, there is no reason why someone shouldn't multiclass to take more advantage of that next level than you do, with your continual advancement in the weak paladin class.</blockquote>

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