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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 1596630" data-attributes="member: 5834">A person with no worthwhile rebuttal usually doesn't.Seems you missed the part where I stated what Melee means, but I'll do so again since you are obtuse: A melee class is one whose primary form of damage derives from physical combat. Is that a sufficent definition? The best melee does not mean the most damage, but the best in terms of overall capabilities.Hmmm. Are you telling me your DM deliberately creates adventure not populated with Evil creatures? You certainly can't be talking about modules. Modules are about 80 ot 90 percent filled with evil adversaries.So equally inflated stats isn't somehow balanced? Are you somehow assuming that the PC's roll attribute so good that they they still don't use dump stats? That the fighter won't have an equally inflated Str, Dex, and Con compared to the Paladins Str, Con and Cha? Your sorely mistaken.Let's assume 28 point buy:FighterS: 16 (10) D: 14 (6) C 14 (6) I 10 (2) W 10 (2) Ch 10 (2) = 28 pointsPaladinS: 14 (6) D: 10 (2) C 14 (6) I 10 (2) W 12 (4) Ch 15 (8) = 28 pointsLet's assume our campaign:FighterS: 18  D: 14 C 16 I 12 W 12 Ch 12 PaladinS: 16 D 12 C 14 I 12 W 12 Ch 18The fighter would still have a better strength, and be relatiely equal in all other stats. There is no difference between rolling and point buy in how each class will spend their best attributes. Now, a PC may roll exceedingly lucky, but the fighter or any other class has the same chance of rolling lucky. On average, a fighter will still be able to spend their best attributes in Str, Dex, and Con, and a Paladin will focus on Str, Con, and Cha.I beg to differ. Defense is as important to combat as offense as is downtime healing. A Paladin can deal with situations other than straight combat that a fighter cannot. How can a fighter obtain a mount as good as a Paladin's when theres doesn't increase in power at all? What's to stop a Paladin from obtaining the leadership feat to obtain  a more powerful mount?Substantially better is substantially overestimating how much better a fighters combat attributes will be. Most Paladins where heavy armor, anything higher than +1 dex is wasted. Dex's primary use is Reflex saves, initiative, and ranged attacks in combats. Divine grace makes up for the lower dex for reflex saves, a paladin won't be making many ranged attacks, and the higher initiative is not a necessity.A fighter will only have a marginally better strength if he or she wants to have a good Con and Dex.This statement alone shows how deluded you are. A 2 point wisdom item gets your wisdom high enough to cast fourth level spells, not too hefty an investment. Scrolls and wands give much earlier access to them. If you happen to be fighting an enemy using a flaming or shocking weapon, a fire elemental, or a demon in a fire aura it's nice to be able to resist the damage.In pure melee a fighter is better. As I've stated, that overall a Paladin is a better melee class. Once again you are being obtuse. I've stated multiple times that I do not look only at the ability to deal melee damage when I quantify a melee class.They really haven't been refuted. You just brush them off as "well, 90% of encounters aren't against evil." I can only say that maybe 80% is closer to the mark, but definitely the majority of encounters, especially major encounters, are against evil enemies."Fear doesn't come up that often". I agree, it doesn't come up that often. But it does come up against many key opponents such as Dragons, undead, and evil spell casters. Very prominent villains we often fight against. I have faced fear many times, and the immunity has been very helpful."Will saves aren't that important". Not my experience either. Will saves cause melees alot of trouble. The paladin resists will based attacks better than any other melee class except for the monk.You haven't refuted any of these assertions. You just disregarded them claiming they do not come up often enough to fret over. I disagree with that assertion.I play in the Forgotten Realms. The multiclassing restriction is substantially more lenient. Even before FR came out, it still wasn't that big a deal to take your multiclass levels first. The most common multiclass Paladin was four levels of fighter prior to taking Paladin.You are quite right, very few people play straight fighters all the way up. In 3rd edition, I've seen very few straight classes played all the way up. Most people like Prc's or multiclassing. That's the nature of 3rd edition.Why even argue with you Reaper? You have blown off several relevant Paladin abilities that make a Paladin stand out.For pure melee damage, you're right: A fighter or barbarian has more capacity for doing pure melee damage. If that is how you want to rate the melee classes, then so be it.I rate them by overall capabilities. Overall the Paladin is the strongest. Their mix of defensive and offensive capabilities are better than any of the other classes that rely on melee damage as their primary source of damage. They don't do substantially less damage than either a Fighter or Barbarian in the majority of encounters, and they have the possibility of doing more damage in many encounters given the use of spells like Divine Favor or Divine Sacrifice and feats like Divine Might.Just because you play your Paladins in a manner that allows them to be outshone by the other melee classes, does not mean the same thing occurs in our campaigns. As far as the stat system we use, it still equally limits all characters. Fighters still generally have higher physical attributes, and Paladins still have to spend a high stat for Charisma.</blockquote>

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