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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6686956" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Agreed on both counts; although I'm not a DM, if I were a DM I would treat relatively few characters as "completely beyond redemption" (partially because that's kind of a theologically important point for me). However, Paladins are at a lot bigger risk of that than other characters, because they generally do take some kind of oath, make some kind of contract or covenant, or follow some kind of code--it is their "purity," in some sense, which gives them their power, and violating the trust placed in them is why it comes with penalties.We have to tread a rather fine line, as is always the case with corner-alignments. That is, if we take Alignment as a Serious Thing, then "Lawful Good" means aligning oneself with two distinct, non-identical concepts of behavior, and the fact that they are distinct and non-identical means that they may not always agree. This is part of why I make such a major point out of ensuring that the code my Paladin characters follow isn't just written down "somewhere"--it needs to be written down by me and my DM, agreed upon between us, and well-understood by both parties. Because when you simply ascribe to a "code" as a set of nebulous philosophical concepts (like "Law" and even "Good") rather than a code as an actual set of behavioral instructions, those concepts can be irreconcilable, and yet the character can still be "held responsible" for failing to obey irreconcilable commands!So, in general, I pursue a code which highly values laws, but which is not a slave to legislation. That is, as my Dungeon World Paladin's code (his personal summation and distillation of the teachings of Bahamut's church) puts it, "Justice without mercy is tyranny. Mercy without justice is impotent," and borrowing from St. Augustine, "Laws exist to serve the people. An unjust law is no law at all." Thus, although laws are very important (mercy without justice is impotent), it is entirely possible for one or more of a nation's laws to fail to actually be just, and laws which fail this requirement not only can, but should be disobeyed, and ideally should be repealed and replaced with other laws that are just.Hence why, when I speak of this character, I emphasize that he is Lawful Good: his oath, his creed, is specifically about doing right by others and improving the lives of the downtrodden and forgotten, giving protection to the weak and succor to the weary. He genuinely believes that laws are the best way to achieve this...BUT that laws can also get in the way of it. When they do, there is no fault in disobeying them--laws are the (vastly) preferred means to the morally appropriate end, but they can also be misused for other, morally inappropriate ends. In fact, I'll just post the bit I've actually written (a brief but succinct summary of most of Bahamut's teachings--parables and stories boiled down to punchy sentences):[sblock]Justice without mercy is tyranny. Mercy without justice is impotent. Laws exist to serve the people. An unjust law is no law at all. Any who will stand to fight injustice are my allies.All deserve honor and respect, even my enemies. There is no dishonor in survival, only in desertion. It is a victory to vanquish evil, but a far greater victory to convert it. I will render aid to any who honestly seek atonement and redemption.Truth is a greater weapon than any sword.I will defend the weak and shelter the weary. The downtrodden and forgotten are my charges. Bahamut's wings give succor and solace to those who have none. Those who give freely to others are Bahamut's hands in this world. I live to serve, protect, and build the future. That which is built endures, and that which is loved endures. Selfless love may do that which should be impossible.As He is my Shield, I will be His Talon. I will strike down those who prey upon the innocent and defenseless.I am a Paladin of Bahamut.[/sblock]It's certainly a thing to consider. What social perspective will this have? Technically, it sounds like the action was taken in a place far from "inquiring minds," as it were, so it might be that nobody will know. The Paladin in question can simply say, "I dealt with the threat--the ogres should bother you no more." You can thus argue that there is no "social context" to the action, outside of the Paladin's party, and it would take some relatively dickish fellow-adventurers to start spreading rumors about him taking the law into his own hands.But yes, I definitely think that a Lawful Good deity is going to consider questions like "how will my champion's actions reflect on me?" Whether it's a world where God Needs Prayer Badly (e.g. FR-style "gods die of something like starvation if they aren't worshipped") or not, deities generally want to have lots of people worship them. For Good ones, coercive methods to getting more worshippers are a big no-no, so you really have to be setting a good example that will be attractive to mortals--more attractive than the alternatives. Even if the Paladin is technically upholding at least the letter of his code, his actions could make people question whether they really want the "protection" of a god who allows such things.This is yet another reason why I would (even in a 3e-style "one false move and god pulls the plug" system) have a "we need to talk about this" kind of attitude from the deity. Unless the act is really, really clearly okay (e.g. a St. Cuthbert kind of "destroy the wicked and lay low the proud" approach to evil).</blockquote>

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