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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FreeTheSlaves" data-source="post: 5919427" data-attributes="member: 9952">Ok let's say that egalitarianism is part of the definition of good, and thus the good folk are slowly working towards modern values. That's fair enough given the the proof of real human history (and we do broadly consider ourselves good people). I'm on-board so far. Before we go down the road of assumed parallels let's give a bit of credit to feudalism, because in a period of our history it was more or less the best form of governance available. Provide service, get protection. Church promotes chivalry and the warrior class behave, somewhat. Not such a bad deal given the threat of violence and lack of real alternates. Enter the undead, dragons and what have you and the path of development becomes open to the imagination - it is possible feudalism could be the preferred system, full stop!Regardless, we also have conservatism to consider. Umm, conserving the established order probably fits best with lawful however let's not be cynical and let's say that is done out of a genuine belief, with proof enough, for the greater good. Conservatism is great in that because it's about the status quo it could be egalitarian or rigidly class based, depending on what currently exists.In my meandering way, what I'm getting at is that conflicting ideas can find themselves in the same alignment while threads of a single idea can be found scattered across the axis.So then my questions become what practical use is alignment, what message is it trying to convey, and at what point does its usefulness end? To get answers relevant to 5E we'll need a new thread - if people are interested?Ok, coming back to the good stuff.By the sounds of it the tale of Lancelot and the 10 Knights sounds a tragic waste springing from all combatants involved having honour to excess and refused to yield. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt (I prefer to do that) and say all were LG Paladins to start with. There was a misunderstanding of sorts (11 failed diplomacy/sense motive checks!) and a challenge was given that noone was prepared to back down from. At this point they're still LG right? I mean they're not mercilessly ravaging the countryside, they will grant mercy if someone yields, I suspect they'll even take the vanquished to their Liege lord for fair justice - which probably would've sorted the mess out. The battle breaks out and noone yields and Lancelot wins. My take on that is a bunch of LG paladins (who dumped on wisdom) who unwittingly let themselves kill 10 of their number. They're all LG but CE was the winner on the day.The desperate LG thief. That's got a bit of hidden trickiness to it but let's have a go (although I'm already feeling guilty of a thread derail). Let's assume a LG mother and wife. Desperate times she finds herself with a sick husband and starving children. She spots an opportunity to steal a loaf of bread, and being sane she does so. Does she change alignment? Well I don't think so, because she felt forced to commit an act that went against her nature. She feels bad about it, she wants to make amends, she's worried about the example she's given her children. If on the other hand she say develops a snatching habit, rationalizes it as just desserts, and continues doing it after the crisis passes, well there would be grounds to say she's moved a bit on law-chaos axis. Heck if she grew embittered, perhaps after losing her family to starvation, she could move on the good-evil axis if the thieving had a reckless disregard to the harm it could do.</blockquote>

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