Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5920259" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think we both know that they're not.Well obviously an egalitarianism of rights. Probably also of respect. And there's also, and obviously, a theological dimension to the egalitarianism too.I assume by &quot;enjoyment&quot; you mean something like &quot;having the interest that grounds the right be fulfilled&quot;. As opposed to &quot;having the right recognised and respected&quot;.Bentham didn't say this - he was a rights sceptic.My point is that Gygax's alignments are incoherent even on their own terms - purporting to advocate both utilitarianism and rights-egalitarianism at the same time - and are not at all suited to expounding a chivalric ideal, given that both utilitarianism and rights-egalitarianism are modern ideals, at odds with chivalry.You'll note there the statement of the Benthamite ieal.But having stated the Benthamite ideal, he's committed to sacrifice - because maximising the welfar of decent, thinking creatures may require sacrificing the welfare of some for others. The sacrifice need not be self-sacrifice (and many of the well-known objections to utilitarianism trade on its apparent commitment to other-sacrifice) but if you're going to try and reconcile Benthamism with some form of rights-respect, self-sacrifice will presumably loom larger.He's probably also committed to dignity, because that's the standard ground for universal human (or, in this case, creature) rights.And the commitment to altruism is also obvious. In the PHB (p 33) he talks about LG &quot;follow[ing] these precepts to improve the common weal&quot;. Concern for the &quot;common weal&quot; (ie the welfare of all) is tautologously altruistic. In the DMG (p 23) he says that NG (ie those with maximum concern for good) aims at &quot;bringing life, happiness and prosperity to all deserving creatures.&quot; That's an altruistic goal. And LG is presented as having the same goal, namely, &quot;assur[ing] good&quot; with good &quot;best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest.&quot;So when the SRD talks about altruism, dignity and sacrifice it's in my view entirely consistent with Gygax, stating both consequences and grounds of the position Gygax articulates.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5920259, member: 42582"] I think we both know that they're not. Well obviously an egalitarianism of rights. Probably also of respect. And there's also, and obviously, a theological dimension to the egalitarianism too. I assume by "enjoyment" you mean something like "having the interest that grounds the right be fulfilled". As opposed to "having the right recognised and respected". Bentham didn't say this - he was a rights sceptic. My point is that [I]Gygax[/I]'s alignments are incoherent even on their own terms - purporting to advocate both utilitarianism and rights-egalitarianism at the same time - and are not at all suited to expounding a chivalric ideal, given that both utilitarianism and rights-egalitarianism are modern ideals, at odds with chivalry. You'll note there the statement of the Benthamite ieal. But having stated the Benthamite ideal, he's committed to sacrifice - because maximising the welfar of decent, thinking creatures may require sacrificing the welfare of some for others. The sacrifice need not be self-sacrifice (and many of the well-known objections to utilitarianism trade on its apparent commitment to other-sacrifice) but if you're going to try and reconcile Benthamism with some form of rights-respect, self-sacrifice will presumably loom larger. He's probably also committed to dignity, because that's the standard ground for universal human (or, in this case, creature) rights. And the commitment to altruism is also obvious. In the PHB (p 33) he talks about LG "follow[ing] these precepts to improve the common weal". Concern for the "common weal" (ie the welfare of all) is tautologously altruistic. In the DMG (p 23) he says that NG (ie those with maximum concern for good) aims at "bringing life, happiness and prosperity to all deserving creatures." That's an altruistic goal. And LG is presented as having the same goal, namely, "assur[ing] good" with good "best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest." So when the SRD talks about altruism, dignity and sacrifice it's in my view entirely consistent with Gygax, stating both consequences and grounds of the position Gygax articulates. [/QUOTE]

Verification