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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr. Strangemonkey" data-source="post: 2119493" data-attributes="member: 6533">In response to that two things:  First of all I think you would be very interested in reading Sean Stewart he's a Canadian/American sci-fi author who does interesting things in that vein.  In terms of urban fantasy, or fantasy generally, he has the best take on spirits and the supernatural acting as parts of modern or post-modern (in this case in the literal sense as many of his characters work in a world that lives in the immediate ruins of modernity) I have yet read.  Galveston is my favorite and, in my opinion, the best Texas ghost story I have ever read and the second best bit of Texas fantasy around aside from the Cowboy Genesis or, possibly, L'Amour's Haunted Mesa.  Night Watch or Resurrection Man might be closer to what your are doing, however, particularly the character of Double Monkey or the Lady in the Garden in Night Watch.  Second, good lord!  I don't think I would ever incorporate a rhetorical work into a role-playing game on that level.  Sounds like a good take on Burke though.  Would be interesting to actually work out a character class based on rhetoric.  The Monk of Eloquence or the Druid of the Silvae Rhetoricae?  The could be a crazy shadowy cipher of the way alchemists worked in European history teaching the rich and powerful while organizing themselves into cabals and correspondence societies.  Their power magnified by various artifacts of their forgotten masters, all of them on the look out for their ultimate goal, the Philosopher's Stone!  Though in this case it's really a stone cut out of a dead philosopher and then used to beat another one, oooh how they hate philosophers!At their head of their shadowy guild I see a leader known only as the Logographer a being posessing, and posessed by, their most powerful artifact, the Silver Tongue of Cicero! Cut from his head by the enemies of true statesmanship the new Logographer must cut out his own and graft in place in order to posess both the title and its true powers. The power of Ethos protects you, the power of Pathos weakens your enemies, and the power of Logos destroys all opposition!Sounds interesting, more or less the reverse of how all my druid characters end up working in the party.  I'd have to see it to really get if I think it fits the summonner archetype I'm looking for.  The closest one I've seen so far is the Genie Mage in Dragon Sands, and it wasn't that interesting mechanically.  I recall seeing a shaman book I wasn't that impressed with, but perhaps it was another one. To be accurate I think that's part of your position, but I agree that we have similar complaints we just disagree about how important they are or rather, perhaps, on the context they should be viewed in.  I don't at all know if we agree on the virtues of the Monk class but I suspect it would be a similar dichotomy.<a href="http://eos-press.com/products-wotg.html" target="_blank">http://eos-press.com/products-wotg.html</a>It's not a d20 book in any way shape or form, so I'm not recommending that you spend budget on it unless you are looking for a break, but I do think that you would enjoy looking at how the game is set up and how it incorporates ideological systems into character powers, character development, and basic mechanics.It does, btw, have the very neatest looking basic die roll mechanic I have yet seen.My suggestion would be to go through the download material, the sticky threads, and the top few threads in the forum.  It's a pretty exciting system, and Brad Elliot who runs EOS press is a very supportive line manager and excellent conversationalist.I'd also appreciate your input on a side project of mine that's developed out of looking at that system, you can skip down to the thread on how I stopped worrying and learned to love the plate armor.  I'm looking to describe the basic heroic movements, in seven steps, of characters in Chivalric literature from Homer to George RR Martin.   And I mean movement, getting from point A to point B while defending yourself, not combat, hacking at all the people between point A and point B.  Step one would be Tyrion from Song of Ice and Fire - heroic but it's not really his idiom of heroism - and step seven would be Achilles during his rage - where yes he's an A__ kicker but he's not so much invulnerable or totally world destroying as unfreaking stoppable or opposable.If in the East your epic heroes become light as the dew, what do they do in the west?</blockquote>

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