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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7820138" data-attributes="member: 22779">Isn't Asmodeus somewhat famous for keeping his word?&nbsp; I mean, like this is something he's specifically known for?------Not sure I buy the Spider-man archetype.&nbsp; Spider-man just doesn't seem to have much of a code of conduct at all, other than, &quot;help people&quot;.&nbsp; I wonder if The Doctor might not fit.&nbsp; Capaldi's final speech:seems to fit OoA's paladins pretty well, including that somewhat whimsical point about never eat pears.&nbsp; And the Doctor is frequently being put in no-win situations where it is necessary to sacrifice one for the good of many.&nbsp; To the point where he gets so happy in &quot;The Doctor Dances&quot; when everyone, just once in a while, everyone lives.&nbsp; Most of the time, not everyone lives, and frequently, lots of people die because the Doctor couldn't save them.&nbsp; It causes him all sorts of angst, but, he perseveres regardless.&nbsp; To me, this would make a pretty solid archetype for Oath of Ancients.----The Nazi guard tower example is flawed.&nbsp; For one, it implies that the paladin is repeatedly breaking his oath, rather than it being on a case by case basis.&nbsp; &quot;I had to do it or Hitler would kill me&quot; is not exactly true - the guard could have run away, the guard could have reasonably done any number of other things.&nbsp; The problem with this example is that it ignores the immediate threat issue.&nbsp; If I literally put a gun to your head and force you to shoot someone, you are not morally culpable of anything.&nbsp; If I steal your money, you are not guilty of anything.&nbsp; You did not willingly give me money.&nbsp; I forced you to give me money.&nbsp; That's where I am strongly disagreeing with [USER=463]@S'mon[/USER] about the &quot;willingness&quot; issue.&nbsp; If your only choices are meaningless, pointless death and something else evil, where your death will accomplish nothing and will not even prevent the other evil, then you are no longer morally culpable.&nbsp; And, in the case of the OoA paladin, What would the Doctor Do, isn't a bad guideline, IMO.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7820138, member: 22779"] Isn't Asmodeus somewhat famous for keeping his word? I mean, like this is something he's specifically known for? ------ Not sure I buy the Spider-man archetype. Spider-man just doesn't seem to have much of a code of conduct at all, other than, "help people". I wonder if The Doctor might not fit. Capaldi's final speech: seems to fit OoA's paladins pretty well, including that somewhat whimsical point about never eat pears. And the Doctor is frequently being put in no-win situations where it is necessary to sacrifice one for the good of many. To the point where he gets so happy in "The Doctor Dances" when everyone, just once in a while, everyone lives. Most of the time, not everyone lives, and frequently, lots of people die because the Doctor couldn't save them. It causes him all sorts of angst, but, he perseveres regardless. To me, this would make a pretty solid archetype for Oath of Ancients. ---- The Nazi guard tower example is flawed. For one, it implies that the paladin is repeatedly breaking his oath, rather than it being on a case by case basis. "I had to do it or Hitler would kill me" is not exactly true - the guard could have run away, the guard could have reasonably done any number of other things. The problem with this example is that it ignores the immediate threat issue. If I literally put a gun to your head and force you to shoot someone, you are not morally culpable of anything. If I steal your money, you are not guilty of anything. You did not willingly give me money. I forced you to give me money. That's where I am strongly disagreeing with [USER=463]@S'mon[/USER] about the "willingness" issue. If your only choices are meaningless, pointless death and something else evil, where your death will accomplish nothing and will not even prevent the other evil, then you are no longer morally culpable. And, in the case of the OoA paladin, What would the Doctor Do, isn't a bad guideline, IMO. [/QUOTE]

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