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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6197886" data-attributes="member: 1465">I am not sure if the suggested changes would be a real improvement, but I do feel that subclasses need to be "large enough", otherwise there will be problems later in capturing/defining some of the archetypes that subclasses are supposed to deliver.For instance, 4 levels worth of subclass features IMO are a bit too few, I'd like at least 5 or 6.The general framework is that you get a certain amount of features from your class, another amount from your subclass, and a third amount from feats (which are generally non-class specific).I don't remember the numbers now, but I think we have some subclasses with as few as 4 features (or at least, 4 levels at which they get subclass features), and others have 6-7. The Cleric is odd because domain spells are granted often, but then the other subclass features are concentrated at very low (1-2) levels and very high levels, but still the choice of subclass is major.At the same time, some classes have as few as 4 feats, and the Fighter has 7. I don't actually mind this difference, I think it would be ok to first decide how much should be defined by class, then how much should be defined by subclass, and finally the number of feats will come as a consequence.But right now I think I want at least that classes like the Paladin would indeed get more from subclasses, which can be achieved by picking a couple of class features and turning them into subclass features.My whole point is that if the set of features gains from the subclass is too small, it might be hard to properly design more subclasses that cover their concept properly. (Of course the opposite problem exists, that if a class' subclasses are too big, then every new subclass requires more design work to fill it up with features).---BTW, I would also like all subclasses to start at 3rd level, but that's another matter. For Wizards and Rangers it should be a piece of cake to do so. For Clerics it is trickier due to domain spells, since getting both 1st and 2nd level domain spells at Cleric lv3 might be too much of a sudden boost.</blockquote>

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