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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 2726348" data-attributes="member: 2067">Well, that's a complex issue that I think has its origins in the DM vs. PC's kind of play that Gygax encouraged and the old alignment system where to become something different was punishable. In other words, in every other edition, losing your paladinhood was absolutely something a DM did to hurt a player who wasn't "playing it right." So the Paladin has all that baggage attatched to the Fall that doesn't, in 3e, have to be there. And, from a player who doesn't "get" that kind of Catholic Knight angle, it can absolutely seem like a punishment.IMC, I get around this in the same way the Catholic church does, in general -- atonement comes around a few times a year, and can be performed en masse (for free) for those who want it. Any Good church has these festivals for their own faith, though the reasons for the fall may be different (Kord worshippers ask forgiveness for not being strong enough, Pelor worshippers repent for praying for rain for their crops, etc.) Evil churches aren't interested in forgiveness, though they do have punishment (which you are supposed to avoid). Chaotic churches might do it rarely, and mostly forgive those who control others. Lawful churches, of course, do it for those who violate the order of the universe. In other words, atonement spells are a functioning and public part of religion IMC. When the PC's talk to Paladins, they will meet some repentants. When they talk to the Paladin who leads them into a fight, he might discuss how he has fallen in the past. If the world doesn't view it as a failure -- indeed, they regard it as a virtue -- then the players have only their own hang-ups to blame. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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