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Message: <blockquote data-quote="reapersaurus" data-source="post: 922163" data-attributes="member: 1194">LokiDR, you don't understand the question.it was asked the outcome if WELL-DESIGNED characters were pitted against each other.You have been ... i believe the word is "disingenuous."You are comparing a melee-character (the paladin) against a spellcaster/healer (cleric), and saying that if the cleric doesn't waste resources in keeping his non-combat role, than it's an unfair comparison.BS.The question/challenge is simple.If you make characters TO FIGHT, who would win at levels 1,5,9, and 13...  the cleric or the paladin.And I guarantee you, the cleric is better in almost every respect.The paladin only has a one shot ability (Smite, also alignment-dependant) and a bonded horse as an advantage.Guess what, people? If you give the paladin a horse, you should give the cleric a horse, as well. Why? Well, did the horse just magically appear to the paladin? No. So even if you give the paladin a free horse, just subtract X gold pieces from the cleric and give him an unbonded horse to make it a fair fight (if you must include the horse).The benefit of the paladin's bonded mount class feature is NOT a automatic-CR boost in every fight: it's that his horse is smarter, stronger, more armored, more agile, with better saves than a normal horse. So give the cleric a normal mount, give the pally his bonded mount, and let's rock.The cleric wil have every advantage (almost). His spells at EVERY level will turn the fight into a laughingstock, and his domain feats will give him better combat capability. He can therefore 'afford' Divine Might more than the Paladin, and he can make his own magic items if he wants. He can also use Rhino Hide, and use a lance if he wants, just like the paladin. His GMW and Divine Favor (Divine Power, too) will always outstrip the paladin's BAB. Oh, did I mention Smite spell from R&R? It can be used on the cleric's choice of alignment, and it's 1st level (he's got a ton of 'em).Righteous Might and Spikes will really make the fight a joke, much less the clerics healing ability owns over Lay On Hands.At level 1, the cleric will win because he can get Divine Might (the paladin can't). He also can cast Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, and Magic Weapon.At level 5, the cleric wins because of the previous + Magic Vestment, Spikes, and buff spells (also Dispel Magic).At level 9, he wins because of the previous + GMW and Righteous Might and Divine Power (Monstrous Regeneration from MaoF).At level 13, he wins due to whatever high-level spell you can abuse (Quest, Harm, MaoF stuff, DotF stuff : Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Greater Aspect of the Diety?)Now, IF the pally survives till 14th (most likely 15th unless 18 WIS), than his Holy Sword and Dragon Mount might do some damage, but it's too little too late.</blockquote>

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