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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 924077" data-attributes="member: 6239">Re: you play it your way, i'll play it mineYes, you have missed the point.  The point that clerics can focus their skills/feats/spells into areas other than combat and still be "well designed".A cleric with trickery and travel domains can be an effective stealth character.  Trickery grants Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills, as well as invisiblity as a spell.  Travel means fast movement or getaway.  The character would use silence to prevent being heard.  Cross class skills in search (or the cosmopolitan feat) plus the find traps spell means finding traps is possible.  Another feat for disable device, or just use protection spells, and you can get past those traps.  Locks in stone don't mean much when you remove the whole lock with a stone shape spell.  He still has plenty of spells for healing.This character is a well designed, but wouldn't fare well in combat with most any paladin.Not as nearly as you seem to believe.  I have clerics based on all manor of strange ideas, and many work quite well.  All the effective paladin concepts I have seen center on fighting.  Different weapons, different styles, but still combat.Given the number of domains, and how many focus on combat, I say there more options that any given well designed cleric will be focused on combat is far less than the chance that any given well designed paladin will focus on combat.You are not looking at the range of characters built with these classes, only on your narrow fight.  You are not evaluating the class, you are evaluating the class in this fight. That is not the entirety of the class the game of D&D, never will be.In general, yes.Who would a fighter to be more effective in combat than a wizard, since there is a good chance the wizard will focus on divination or other non-combat spells.Greyguy asked "and if battle ensued" which means he was NOT talking about these classes only in a battle.  I don't think I have misinterpereted anything, and I know I haven't misrepresented what I think in any intentional way.You keep insulting me, say I have misrepresented myself.  I have maintained that I trying evaluate the classes in all situation that may come up.  If you have not noticed this, is your misinterpretation.  If you are ignoring my criteria for evaluation to bolster your arguement, you are being petulent and off-topic.  If you want to debate what the original poster wanted, we can.  If you want to debate what is easier or better to powergame, we should have settle that point long ago.I have been talking about general members of a party this whole time.  I have stated as such in my third post in this thread Since we seem to be debating what was originally asked, I will put this to you a different way:  If greyguy wanted to know who could be tricked out for combat better, why didn't he ask that?  Since he didn't, I have to assume he wanted a more general answer.You persist in calling me names, and twisting this whole debate.  I have been as straightforward as I can this whole time.  Perhaps you should calm down a bit.The original question was not "who can be min-maxed better for combat".  There would have been next to no debate in that case, at least from me.  The question was who would be more effective, usefull and if it came to battle, who would win.  That, to the best of my abilities, is the question I have been trying to answer looking at all the limits that were placed on the question: the entire game.  In the game, there are clerics who don't focus on combat, and this give the paladin an edge.  You seem hung up connecting "well designed" with battle.  I think you have misunderstood the semantics.If can't agree on what question we are trying to debate, there can be no useful debate.  If you don't care figure out the question, or don't accept what I believe the question is, we either debate the meaning of the question, ask for a clarification, or stop attempting to debate.  All else is wasted time.Since you will not continue trying to determine what the question is, I will leave it up to you about asking clarification or not discussing this any further.You are right, there is no such thing as unbiased.  But asking member of this board to make characters is much more biased.  The iconics are general examples.  You are wrong when you say there is no way to evaluated hundreds of paladins and clerics.  I just don't want to go throught the work.  Sampling a variety clerics and paladins would allow us to answer the general question of combat prowess between cleric and paladin in general.Who can powergame more: cleric, hands down.  In general, the paladin is better in combat, by a close margin.  I think the latter answers the original question better than the former.</blockquote>

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