Paladin with Bard Spell Progression

[Elphilm]

Hi there! I've been working on a campaign world that uses rycanada's wonderful E6 rules. Integrating the divine-based classes into the world has presented a fun little problem.

It's a common notion that the cleric and paladin classes are similar in flavor, if not in capabilities. Both are martial champions of their respective deities, and the difference appears to be that clerics are more priestly and paladins more knightly. However, in my campaign world the gods are distant and their champions rare; most priests have never had a single day of combat training in their lives, and neither can they necessarily cast spells. I think that in a world like this two classes of divine champions is one too many.

The logical thing to do would be to drop the paladin. The cleric has been an integral part of D&D since its inception, and is (perhaps unfortunately) a requirement for the party in 3E. The problem is that for holy soldiers, clerics cast too many spells per day for my tastes, and many of their spells are strange attack spells that blur the lines between divine and arcane magic. However, dropping the cleric in favor of the paladin doesn't work either - paladins cannot really act as the party healer. Whereas clerics cast too many spells, paladins cannot cast enough!

I wonder if it's possible to find a happy medium between the two classes by combining them. What I'm looking for is a warrior class with more utility spells than a paladin - something like an OD&D cleric. I'm tentatively calling the class "crusader", although it shouldn't be confused with the Tome of Battle class of the same name.

So, let's begin by stripping the paladin off his abilities. Out goes his alignment restriction, all abilities tied to the alignments, and his special mount. In return, in comes more spell goodness. I'm using the bard spells per day progression as a guideline. We're left with the following (and remember that this class is for E6):


Table 1: The Crusader
Hit Die: d10

                                                                Spells per Day
Level  BAB   Ref  Fort  Will  Abilities                         0   1st  2nd
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      +1    +2   +0    +0                                      2    -    -
2      +2    +3   +0    +0    Divine grace, lay on hands        3    0    -  
3      +3    +3   +1    +1    Aura of courage, divine health    3    1    -  
4      +4    +4   +1    +1    Turn undead                       3    2    0  
5      +5    +4   +1    +1                                      3    3    1  
6      +6    +5   +2    +2    Remove disease 1/week             3    3    2

How would you go about balancing the class from here, assuming this "crusader" has access to the paladin spell list? Since the class is meant to replace both clerics and paladins in my campaign world, it should be better at healing and (slightly) worse at fighting than a paladin. The removal of smite evil might already be enough to take the crusader's combat abilities down a notch. I could compensate for it by either making cure moderate wounds a 2nd-level crusader spell, or by strengthening the lay on hands ability somehow.

I'm not so hot about remove disease as a spell-like ability, and the whole turn undead mechanic is bothersome as well. In fact, I'm tempted to ditch them both and insert many of the condition removal spells from the cleric spell list to the crusader spell list. Dispel magic, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease, and remove curse are the first that come to mind.

However, I don't know if major changes such as these will lead to a balanced class. Since the cleric is probably the strongest of the Player's Handbook classes, I'm not too concerned about balance; I think I can go pretty far before this crusader becomes more powerful than the cleric. Regardless, I'd like to hear thoughts and suggestions if you fine folks have any!

 

[Quartz]

How about simply cutting the spells that clerics can take a la Divine Crusader? Let them pick 3 domains and those 3 are the spells they can use. Give them a bonus domain at some point.

Also add in the following feats:

Devoted
Requirements: The character must have faith in and act in a manner consistent with the deity.
Benefit: The character has an unusually strong personal connection to his or her deity.
Special: Should the character ever lose faith in or deviate from the deity's code of behaviour, the character loses all benefits from feats which depend on the Devoted feat until the character atones. The character may only be Devoted to one deity at a time. Note that alignment change is not necessarily a problem as long as the alignment is consistent with the deity (e.g. St Cuthbert in Greyhawk accepts LN and LG worshippers).

Divine Grace
Requirement: Devoted
Benefit: the character gains a +1 Sacred / Profane / Axiomatic / Anarchic bonus to saving throws.
Special: this feat may be taken multiple times and stacks with itself.

 

[Simm]

Not a major problem, I know, but are you sure reflex should be his strong save considering that it's weak for both Cleric and Paladin?

edit: also neither the paladin spell list nor the domain spell lists have level 0 spells on them so you should probably clarify what L0s they can get.

 

[Arkhandus]

Your design seems kind of unusual and doesn't seem to accomplish what you were going for.... How about this?

Table 1: The Crusader
Hit Die: d8

Class	Base	Base	Base	Base				Spells Per Day
Level	Attack	Fort	Ref	Will	Special			0	1	2	3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1	+1	+2	+0	+0	Lay on Hands		2	-	-	-
2	+2	+3	+0	+0	Divine Grace		2	1	-	-
3	+3	+3	+1	+1	Divine Health		3	1	-	-
4	+4	+4	+1	+1	Aura of Courage		3	1	1	-
5	+5	+4	+1	+1	Smite Evil 1/day	3	2	1	-
6	+6	+5	+2	+2				3	2	1	1

No domains, no turning undead. Some excess power over the Fighter compensated for by a slightly lower hit die, some religious attachments, and kind of significant Multiple Ability Dependancy (needing Cha for LoH/DG/SE, and Wis for spells, in addition to the usual warrior ability score needs).

Spellcasting somewhere between that of a bard and cleric; slightly less sucky than a bard, but still only about half as much spellcasting as a cleric, give or take a tiny bit. Smite Evil isn't that powerful at these levels; +6 damage and + Cha bonus to the attack roll, once per day only, is not that awesome. A Fighter does more damage in two rounds with Weapon Specialization and full-attacks, and much more over the course of two or three battles.

Spell-wise, just pick some of the paladin spells and some of the cleric spells to make the class' spell list.

EDIT: Here's a possible spell list drawn from the core rules. You may wish to remove one or two spells from it (frex, I decided to add Restoration as a 3rd-level spell, though it's normally a 4th-level spell, since it may be kind of important given that E6 doesn't otherwise allow access to that kind of stuff, removing negative levels and whatnot).

Crusader Spell List
0-Level: Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Inflict Minor Wounds, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1st-Level: Bane, Bless, Bless Water, Bless Weapon, Cause Fear, Comprehend Languages, Cure Light Wounds, Curse Water, Deathwatch, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Doom, Endure Elements, Inflict Light Wounds, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Summon Monster I
2nd-Level: Aid, Align Weapon, Augury, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Calm Emotions, Consecrate, Cure Moderate Wounds, Darkness, Death Knell, Delay Poison, Desecrate, Enthrall, Gentle Repose, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Make Whole, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Status, Summon Monster II, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth
3rd-Level: Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Continual Flame, Create Food and Water, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Deeper Darkness, Discern Lies, Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding, Greater Magic Weapon, Helping Hand, Inflict Serious Wounds, Invisibility Purge, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Magic Vestment, Neutralize Poison, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Restoration, Speak With Dead, Stone Shape, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Water Breathing

 

[Elphilm]

Thanks for the comments!

Before I go into the details I should clarify that giving the crusader a good Reflex save was a fluke; the first saving throw column should read Fort, not Ref! Also, the table was meant to be far from finished, only showing the first step in modifying the paladin by including the bard spells per day progression. This is why the class has access to 0-level spells even though the paladin spell list doesn't have any.

Simply cutting down the cleric spell list is of course a possibility, but I would like the crusader to have either full BAB or d10 Hit Die - the class should be fairly good at melee without overt reliance on buffing spells. In fact, I'm toying with the idea of getting rid of all spells that increase one's ability scores. No class would have access to bear's endurance, bull's strength and the like.

Arkhandus's suggestions are actually similar to what I was thinking of doing. I too want the class to have a rather significant Multiple Ability Dependancy to offset its power. However, I'm not entirely sure about giving the class access to 3rd-level spells - I wonder if keeping the d10 Hit Die would be enough to compensate for the lack of them.

Quartz's feat suggestions are something I thought of doing as well. The class should indeed have a code of behavior (albeit not as strict as a paladin's), and the violation of that code should lead to the loss of all supernatural class abilities.

Here is the table I came up with yesterday before I read your comments:


Table 1: The Crusader
Hit Die: d10

       Base
       Attack  Fort  Ref   Will                      Spells per Day
Level  Bonus   Save  Save  Save   Abilities          0    1st   2nd
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1      +1       +2    +0    +0    Lay on hands       2     -     -
2      +2       +3    +0    +0    Divine grace       3     0     -  
3      +3       +3    +1    +1    Aura of courage    3     1     -  
4      +4       +4    +1    +1    Endurance          3     2     0  
5      +5       +4    +1    +1    Divine health      3     3     1  
6      +6/+1    +5    +2    +2    Smite 1/day        3     3     2

I replaced smite evil with a general smite ability that works like the granted power of the cleric's Destruction domain. The crusader should, after all, be a class for all alignments. I also added in the Endurance feat; in my mind an experienced crusader if anyone should be used to sleeping in armor, and should generally be in peak physical condition. Endurance also ties in nicely with the divine health granted at 5th level - a miracle of faith if there ever was one.

However, I'm rather fond of Sean K Reynolds's "Fewer Absolutes" articles, and I'm tempted to change divine health to a +10 bonus to saving throws against diseases (including supernatural and magical diseases). Pursuant to this, the aura of courage ability should grant a +10 bonus to saving throws against fear effects, and a +4 morale bonus to each ally within 10 feet of the crusader.

Below is the (preliminary) crusader spell list. Some of the spells are non-core, so you might not be familiar with all of them. Suffice to say that there are very few attack spells on the list (fell the greatest foe is perhaps the most noticeable). Ability score buffs are also noticeably absent as per my own suggestion above. The class doesn't have access to Restoration, but the E6 rules include a Restoration feat a cleric can take at 6th level. It allows the cleric to perform Restoration once per day with a casting time of one hour. I don't see any problem with giving the crusader access to the feat, provided that he meets the prerequisites for it.

Crusader Spell List
0-Level: Clarity, Detect Disease, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Discern Aura, Guidance, Mending, Multiply Water, Preservation, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1st-Level: Align Weapon, Bless, Bless Water, Burial Blessing, Calm Emotions, Command, Comprehend Languages, Create Water, Cure Light Wounds, Curse Water, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Divine Favor, Divine Sacrifice, Endure Elements, Exorcism, Light, Lionheart, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Remove Fear, Resurgence, Second Wind, Shield of Faith
2nd-Level: Augury, Aura of Glory, Create Food and Water, Cure Moderate Wounds, Daylight, Delay Poison, Dispel Magic, Divine Protection, Fell the Greatest Foe, Invisibility Purge, Knight's Move, Lesser Restoration, Prayer, Refreshment, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Zeal

What do you think of the class so far? Do you think that giving the crusader full BAB, d10 Hit Die, and access to 2nd-level spells is too much? Moreover, do you think that the class could actually be an able party healer and a part-time frontline combatant? That is in a nutshell what I'm going for.

Again, thanks for the comments so far!

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I like what you're doing, here. I've been a fan of Rycanada's E6 for a long time.

The one thing that strikes me about this idea, though, is the name of the class. Crusader, I think, has already been defined in the Tome of Battle. As long as your group isn't using that volume, the name shouldn't be a problem. For me, since I haven't added that book, it wouldn't be a problem, either. But, I'm still trying to think of an alternate name.

I like what you're doing for the class.

d10 hit die. Good fort save. Bard spell progression... All good.

I'd probably get rid of the fixed abilities and create feats that could be taken. And, then, give the "Crusader" a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th levels. The bonus feats would have to be drawn from list of "Crusader" feats. I'd, also, probably keep the good Will save from the Cleric, too.

I'm just thinking out loud. I really like the work that you've done on this. Good job.

 

[Elphilm]

Hi, and thanks for your comments!

I sort of agree about the class name - since it's already used in Tome of Battle I should probably just pick another name. What I like about "crusader" are the militaristic and perhaps even slightly negative connotations of the word. Not even lawful good crusaders should be universally loved in a setting where the gods are distant and morality often ambiguous.

Perhaps the most obvious alternative for the name of the class is "champion". It's very generic, of course, but then again, so is "fighter".

I think that turning the fixed abilities of the class into feats is a nice idea. What feats would you include on the feat list? Would you include only the six class abilities on the crusader table, or would you insert other feats into the list as well?

I'm not sure about the good Will save. If I had to choose between the two I think I'd keep Divine Grace as a class ability rather than give the class the cleric's saves. Keeping Divine Grace certainly adds to the Multiple Ability Dependency of the class, but I don't think that MAD is necessarily a bad thing in this case; it helps to offset the power of the class.

On another note, as I was recently skimming through the Player's Handbook II the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality ability caught my eye. It's basically like the Lay on Hands ability except that the Dragon Shaman can heal a number of hit points equal to twice his class level x his Charisma bonus. The ability is useless against undead. I think it would be interesting to modify the crusader's Lay on Hands into something similar - it would certainly make him a better healer!

 

[Arkhandus]

Zealot is a reasonable name for a paladinesque class, though often carrying a more negative connotation in the same manner as 'fanatic'.

Giving the class a d10 hit die is probably too much; they're already stronger than a Fighter at the expense of some RP restrictions and MAD.

My only reason for the bit of 3rd-level spellcasting was cuz I thought you intended to get rid of the Cleric for your game, and I figured there should be a divine spellcaster with 3rd-level spells besides the Druid.

 

[Elphilm]

Hi Arkhandus!

I think "zealot" goes too far with its negative connotations. I can't even think of a single example in modern English where the word would have a positive meaning!

I agree that giving the class a d10 Hit Die is a lot. However, look at this way; almost all of the spells in the preliminary spell list in post #5 are dreadfully boring. I've deliberately left all attack spells out of the list because they don't fit into my vision of a divine champion. The condition removal and buffing spells are meant to represent the "passive" side of the class, whereas its combat abilities represent its "active" side. In 4E they are apparently combining the two sides (for example by enabling the cleric to heal party members by striking foes). I doubt I have the talent to design anything similar on my own - nor would I necessarily even want to do that.

The class is definitely meant for people who like to help out other party members. However, whereas the 3E cleric is also good at damaging enemies with spells, the crusader should also be good at stabbing enemies in the face. I agree that the class is probably stronger than the fighter; however, if you compare the crusader to the cleric I think the cleric wins at every level.

The crusader is intended to fully replace both the cleric and the paladin in my campaign. However, I'm still kicking ideas around, and the class is not intended to be finished. That's why I appreciate any comments you have!

As for the druid, I've also thought about another combination of classes. I would like to put both the druid and the bard under a single class. Whereas the crusader represents divine (albeit not necessarily holy) warriors, the hypothetical amalgam of the bard and the druid would represent shamanistic loremasters. I'll have to think about that for a while.

 

[tenkar]

The crusader is intended to fully replace both the cleric and the paladin in my campaign. However, I'm still kicking ideas around, and the class is not intended to be finished. That's why I appreciate any comments you have!

My gut feeling is that giving the crusader full BAB and D10 HD and much of the cleric's spell casting and many of a Paladin's feats leaves little if any reason for someone to play a straight up fighter. What you have here is a fighter with some pally abilities and decent support casting... what does the fighter get?

I'd drop the HD to D8... or give the cleric's BAB... unless you're doing away with fighters as a PC class... depends on the number of players in your group too... small group and you might have the sole healer as the sole tank too.

BTW, as it stands now this is a full time front-line tank and part-time healer... that may be what your party needs.