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<blockquote data-quote="Elphilm" data-source="post: 3791359" data-attributes="member: 55130">Hi there! I've been working on a campaign world that uses rycanada's wonderful <a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206323" target="_blank">E6</a> rules. Integrating the divine-based classes into the world has presented a fun little problem.It's a common notion that the cleric and paladin classes are similar in flavor, if not in capabilities. Both are martial champions of their respective deities, and the difference appears to be that clerics are more priestly and paladins more knightly. However, in my campaign world the gods are distant and their champions rare; most priests have never had a single day of combat training in their lives, and neither can they necessarily cast spells. I think that in a world like this two classes of divine champions is one too many.The logical thing to do would be to drop the paladin. The cleric has been an integral part of D&amp;D since its inception, and is (perhaps unfortunately) a requirement for the party in 3E. The problem is that for holy soldiers, clerics cast too many spells per day for my tastes, and many of their spells are strange attack spells that blur the lines between divine and arcane magic. However, dropping the cleric in favor of the paladin doesn't work either - paladins cannot really act as the party healer. Whereas clerics cast too many spells, paladins cannot cast enough!I wonder if it's possible to find a happy medium between the two classes by combining them. What I'm looking for is a warrior class with more utility spells than a paladin - something like an OD&amp;D cleric. I'm tentatively calling the class &quot;crusader&quot;, although it shouldn't be confused with the Tome of Battle class of the same name.So, let's begin by stripping the paladin off his abilities. Out goes his alignment restriction, all abilities tied to the alignments, and his special mount. In return, in comes more spell goodness. I'm using the bard spells per day progression as a guideline. We're left with the following (and remember that this class is for E6):Table 1: The CrusaderHit Die: d10[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Spells per DayLevel&nbsp; BAB&nbsp;&nbsp; Ref&nbsp; Fort&nbsp; Will&nbsp; Abilities&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp;&nbsp; 1st&nbsp; 2nd------------------------------------------------------------------------------1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp;&nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; -2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp;&nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; Divine grace, lay on hands&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; Aura of courage, divine health&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; Turn undead&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp;&nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; Remove disease 1/week&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 2[/code]How would you go about balancing the class from here, assuming this &quot;crusader&quot; has access to the paladin spell list? Since the class is meant to replace both clerics and paladins in my campaign world, it should be better at healing and (slightly) worse at fighting than a paladin. The removal of smite evil might already be enough to take the crusader's combat abilities down a notch. I could compensate for it by either making cure moderate wounds a 2nd-level crusader spell, or by strengthening the lay on hands ability somehow.I'm not so hot about remove disease as a spell-like ability, and the whole turn undead mechanic is bothersome as well. In fact, I'm tempted to ditch them both and insert many of the condition removal spells from the cleric spell list to the crusader spell list. Dispel magic, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease, and remove curse are the first that come to mind.However, I don't know if major changes such as these will lead to a balanced class. Since the cleric is probably the strongest of the Player's Handbook classes, I'm not too concerned about balance; I think I can go pretty far before this crusader becomes more powerful than the cleric. Regardless, I'd like to hear thoughts and suggestions if you fine folks have any!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elphilm, post: 3791359, member: 55130"] Hi there! I've been working on a campaign world that uses rycanada's wonderful [url=http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206323]E6[/url] rules. Integrating the divine-based classes into the world has presented a fun little problem. It's a common notion that the cleric and paladin classes are similar in flavor, if not in capabilities. Both are martial champions of their respective deities, and the difference appears to be that clerics are more priestly and paladins more knightly. However, in my campaign world the gods are distant and their champions rare; most priests have never had a single day of combat training in their lives, and neither can they necessarily cast spells. I think that in a world like this [i]two[/i] classes of divine champions is one too many. The logical thing to do would be to drop the paladin. The cleric has been an integral part of D&D since its inception, and is (perhaps unfortunately) a requirement for the party in 3E. The problem is that for holy soldiers, clerics cast too many spells per day for my tastes, and many of their spells are strange attack spells that blur the lines between divine and arcane magic. However, dropping the cleric in favor of the paladin doesn't work either - paladins cannot really act as the party healer. Whereas clerics cast too many spells, paladins cannot cast enough! I wonder if it's possible to find a happy medium between the two classes by combining them. What I'm looking for is a warrior class with more utility spells than a paladin - something like an OD&D cleric. I'm tentatively calling the class "crusader", although it shouldn't be confused with the Tome of Battle class of the same name. So, let's begin by stripping the paladin off his abilities. Out goes his alignment restriction, all abilities tied to the alignments, and his special mount. In return, in comes more spell goodness. I'm using the bard spells per day progression as a guideline. We're left with the following (and remember that this class is for E6): [B]Table 1: The Crusader[/B] [B]Hit Die: d10[/B] [code] Spells per Day Level BAB Ref Fort Will Abilities 0 1st 2nd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 2 - - 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, lay on hands 3 0 - 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, divine health 3 1 - 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead 3 2 0 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 3 3 1 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease 1/week 3 3 2[/code] How would you go about balancing the class from here, assuming this "crusader" has access to the paladin spell list? Since the class is meant to replace both clerics and paladins in my campaign world, it should be better at healing and (slightly) worse at fighting than a paladin. The removal of smite evil might already be enough to take the crusader's combat abilities down a notch. I could compensate for it by either making [i]cure moderate wounds[/i] a 2nd-level crusader spell, or by strengthening the lay on hands ability somehow. I'm not so hot about [i]remove disease[/i] as a spell-like ability, and the whole turn undead mechanic is bothersome as well. In fact, I'm tempted to ditch them both and insert many of the condition removal spells from the cleric spell list to the crusader spell list. [i]Dispel magic, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease,[/i] and [i]remove curse[/i] are the first that come to mind. However, I don't know if major changes such as these will lead to a balanced class. Since the cleric is probably the strongest of the Player's Handbook classes, I'm not [i]too[/i] concerned about balance; I think I can go pretty far before this crusader becomes more powerful than the cleric. Regardless, I'd like to hear thoughts and suggestions if you fine folks have any! [/QUOTE]

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