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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgbrowning" data-source="post: 436044" data-attributes="member: 5724">Shark said..."In real war, people die. Lots of people die, and not just the people that wear the black hats, either. In a fantasy war, it isn't unreasonable to assume that similar circumstances would occur. That doesn't mean that the paladin, unlike an evil character, goes out of his way to kill non-combatants, or that he doesn't take efforts to minimise such casualties, but such casualties, even for forces commanded by a paladin, are sometimes unavoidable, and even a necessity if one is to gain victory over the forces of Darkness."First this is a good thread!Second I understand what your trying to accomplish shark, and agree than paladins should be played as more than just a caricature (sp?)..But i have to disagree with the take that killing innocents, just because it is unavoidable, does not harm a paladin's alignment.  For me, situation does not remove moral consequences of an action when the definition of "evil" and "good" are not mutable but universal constants.  This is of course, based solely upon the DnD idea of NON-relative alignment, that there actually is "Platonic Good" and "Platonic Evil."A paladin that willfully commits an evil act loses all special abilities and spells.... it doesn't say "except under mitigating circumstances, where you are forced to chose from the lesser of two evils."I'm sorry, and i understand the desires that created the paladin class and the desires of those who wish to play them, but in a "Real World Fantasy" (*yah i know.. silly huh? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />*) environment, war is not a GOOD act.  It has never been a good act, nor will it ever be a good act because the innocent are killed in the process.  this includes self-defense.A paladin could not survive (alignment wise) in the typical medieval/heroic fantasy world where evil is cunning and will use this knowledge to deliberately put paladins and other "good" people into situations where the choice is really between the lesser of two evils.And for most "good" it doesn't matter... the balance of their actions outweigh the rare occurances where situation forces them to behave in an evil manner.  Paladins, however cannot "willfully" commit an evil act.Evil here, of course in my opinion, being evil regardless of circumstance.I'm actually working on a project and ive been running full bore into this subject and i've pretty much decided that there could be no "Good" kings or kingdoms, because the basic necessities of survival and prosperity combined with a more "medieval" mindset against a real "Evil" would eventually lead to a fall from goodness (or death).  There would be tons and tons of Lawful neutrals though <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> with pleanty of people leaning toward good, but having to make to many "hard" decisions to qualify.  Good would be the provice of those who have the luxury of avoiding those choices. And if you prefer a relative alignment system, the whole stupid mess is taken care of... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Which i prefer.joe b.</blockquote>

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